Author Topic: The Carey Children  (Read 24968 times)

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Offline Queen Victoria

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The Carey Children
« on: May 06, 2008, 11:37:30 PM »
Catherine & Henry Carey, daughter and son of Mary Boleyn Carey...

Henry VIII's children or not? What are your thoughts?

Offline Kimberly

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2008, 01:50:32 PM »
Hi, we had quite a good thread running on this very subject. Here, take a look and see what you think.
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,3782.0.html
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Offline lady

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2008, 01:47:12 PM »
I think both were Carey's children.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2008, 08:31:49 AM »
I believe that too. Most certainly Elisabeth herself.

Offline LadyTudorRose

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2009, 05:56:07 PM »
Henry Carey was the one that supposedly looked the most like Henry VIII, but logic says if it was one of them it was his sister as Henry was always looking for proof he could father a son and if he had one with Mary Boleyn he probably would've acknowledged him. So I'd also say neither of them were or at least the situation was such that neither Henry or Mary knew for sure if they were or weren't. Even if Mary was still sleeping with Henry after her marriage that really doesn't mean she wasn't also with her husband, especially if the thing with Henry was being kept hush hush, which it was with Mary. The only mistress he ever showed off was Anne Boleyn, and that was because he wasn't actually sleeping with her and hoped to make her his wife. Despite the impression a lot of historical fiction gives, Henry wasn't like the French kings who kept official mistresses.

Offline Mari

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2009, 04:03:28 AM »
"Morever, Mr. Skydmore dyd show to me yongge Master Care, saying that he was our suffren Lord the Kynge’s son by our suffren Lady the Qwyen’s syster, whom the Qwyen’s grace might not suffer to be yn the Cowrte."
                            — John Hale, vicar of Isleworth to the Council, 20 April 1535

http://www.genealogymagazine.com/boleyn.html

and then there is this:

For what it is worth, the liaison between Mary Boleyn and King Henry
VIII has been widely dated by one recent historian, Eric Ives, as
either the 1510s or early 1520s [see Eric Ives, The Life & Death of
Anne Boleyn (2004): 15]. In slim support of the latter date, there
exists the transcript of contemporary letter written in 1533 by Dr.
Pedro Ortiz, the Spanish theologian who was sent to Rome to defend the
interests of King Henry VIII’s first wife, Queen Katherine of Aragón.
Dr Ortiz wrote the Empress that King Henry VIII had previously
requested a dispensation from his Holiness to marry Anne Boleyn due to
the “affinity between them on account of his having committed adultery
with her sister.” [see Friedmann, Anne Boleyn: A Chapter of English
History, 1527–1536 2 (1884): 325, citing British Museum, Add. MSS.
28,585, fol. 217]. While the meaning of the word, adultery, as used
by Dr. Ortiz would have been carnal knowledge with a married woman,
the dispensation requested back in 1528 would not have involved the
marital status of Mary Boleyn at all;

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.medieval/2008-10/msg00618.html

but the article ends": Dr. Ortiz being
a foreigner in the employ of the Emperor mitigates the usefulness of
this piece of evidence in dating Mary Boleyn’s affair with the king.
In fact, the historian James Farge has noted that the letters of Dr.
Ortiz “often became nothing more than the recounting of gossip” [see
James Farge, Biographical Reg. of Paris Doctors of Theology, 1500–1536
(Pontifical Institute of Medieval Studies, Subsidia Mediaeval 10)
(1980): 352]."

In this article they claim the rumors were spread by supporters of Katherine of Aragon . I am glad that Mary Boleyn found true happiness if this quote remained true:
 autumn 1534, Mary was discovered to be pregnant - and married to Sir William Stafford, a younger son of no particular standing. Her father cut off her allowance, while Anne had her and her husband banished from court. It was three months before Mary attempted to achieve a reconciliation, and she wrote to Cromwell to beg him to intercede with the Queen, her father, the Duke of Norfolk and her brother. The letter admitted that 'love overcame reason', but contained the following passage:

    For well I might a' had a greater man of birth, but I assure you I could never a' had one that loved me so well. I had rather beg my bread with him than be the greatest queen christened.7

William Carey had died in June 1528 of the Sweat!

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.geocities.com/boleynfamily/mary/maryboleyn.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.geocities.com/boleynfamily/mary/&usg=__vIGcRX39ePWP6J31eO5fF_1OXWM=&h=600&w=496&sz=195&hl=en&start=29&sig2=clOYUu5Duh73wNh1mbkiIQ&um=1&tbnid=3Hyb_EkaGrIVKM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=112&ei=ylhwSb6fA8ibtweByaXRCA&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHenry%2BCarey%2Bson%2Bof%2BMary%2Bboleyn%2Bcarey%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN


Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2009, 09:17:17 AM »
I agree with the new findings that Catherine Carey and her brother were indeed Elizabeth I true kin through both mother and father. It would make Lettice's son's uprising make more sense since Robert Earl of Essex did indeed had royal blood (aka through the wrong side of the blanket). That would repeat itself in the case of the Duke of Manmouth.

Offline Selencia

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2009, 04:52:55 PM »
I think they were both Carey's children, if they were Henry's he would have rushed to snatch up the boy like he did with Fitzroy. Plus I believe looking at the time table if one of them was going to be Henry's it would have to be Catherine Carey seeing as how she was the oldest and was possibly conceived around the time that Henry was still with Mary.

Offline Mari

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2009, 04:18:30 AM »
Catherine Carey at least reputed to be...any other paintings of her?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Catcarey.jpg


Offline umigon

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2009, 07:03:57 AM »

I firmly believe, and have stated so in other posts, that the Carey children were indeed Henry's. The exact cronology of his relationship with Mary Boleyn is impossible to trace, but it must have started not much sooner than 1521 and it was through by July 1525. So, Catherine was born right in the middle of Mary's relationship with Henry (around 1524) and Henry Carey was born 8 months after they split. Do you really believe that Henry would have allowed his concubine to have any affairs with other man, even with her own husband? I don't think so. It is true she could have cheated on him, but I'm sure he would have ended up noticing that. Anyone desiring to destroy the influence of the Boleyn or Howard families would have certainly make him know that Mary was cheating on him. And certainly, if the children weren't Henry's, they probably weren't Carey's either, as William Carey was shown every sign of favour by Henry, and I don't think Henry would have been so generous had he known Carey was having sex with his wife at the same time that he was. Only an indulgent husband would receive grants and prizes by the King...

About recognising his bastard children. Why so? He never recognised Ethelreda Malte and only ever acknowledged Fitzroy. And Fitzroy was recognized because he was looking for a proof that he was capable of generating healthy sons. So, once he got that proof in the person of Fitzroy, he was ready to show the world. But what profit would he gain recognizing Mary Boleyn's children? Absolutely none. They were the children of the sister of the woman whom he was about to marry. This woman, Anne Boleyn, would finally give him healthy and legitimate sons. So, why endanger the position of this future sons acknowledging publicly that he had had to do with the conception of his sister-in-law's children? We must remember that shortly after the birth of Henry Carey, Henry VIII started searching for a divorce from Catherine of Aragon on the grounds that she was his BROTHER's widow!!!
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2009, 09:40:41 AM »
I agree...Elisabeth I's trust and high opinion of them was a side proof that they were her closest siblings in blood (Tudor & Boleyn). As bastard children of her father, they poses less threat than Lady Frances Brandon or Countess Margaret Lennox...

Offline charmstar

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2009, 05:45:15 PM »
Not sure about the son but think it is likely/possible that Catherine Carey was his daughter, because have read in various books that her daughter Lettice Knollys (married (1) Earl of Essex, (2) Robert Dudley Earl of Leicester) was a younger "more beautiful" version of Elizabeth 1; apparently the similarities were enough to mark them as cousins by blood.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2009, 05:53:37 PM »
Which, of course, they were, through Mary Boleyn, even if Henry was not Catherine's father. It's an interesting debate though - Elizabeth's favour of them could just have been down to their relationship to her through Mary, and of course even if she did believe them (or one of them) to be her father's child, that doesn't neccessarily mean they were. Lettice certainly greatly resembles Elizabeth in portraits.
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Offline charmstar

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2009, 06:36:32 PM »
Hi Prince, thanks for the welcome on another post... and duh, I shouldn't get on here so late should I, you are quite right, of course they were cousins anyway on Mary Boleyn's side.  So now I really can't work it out in my head... that means if Henry VIII was Catherine Carey's father, then they had different Mothers, same Father for Elizabeth and Catherine Knollys, where does that place Lettice in relationship terms to Elizabeth?  Does that make her a niece as well? 

I'm also always fascinated by Elizabeth's attitude to the two surviving Grey sisters, Katherine and Mary, she always seemed to view them as a threat and it seems so harsh the way she threw Katherine into the Tower for marrying for love and yet they too were related through Henry VIII's sister Mary.  They both died very young as well, so all in all none of the three Grey sisters seemed to have happy or long lives.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2009, 03:48:54 PM »
You're very welcome! Hmm, if Catherine and Henry were *not* Henry's children, then they were Elizabeth's first cousins, by virtue of being the children of her maternal aunt, which would make Lettice her first cousin once removed. If they were Henry's children, then they were her half-siblings, and Lettice was her half-niece.

If you're interested in the Greys, you should have a look at the 'The Sisters who Would be Queen' thread - we've been discussing Leanda de Lisle's new book about Jane, Katherine and Mary Grey.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."