Author Topic: The Carey Children  (Read 22256 times)

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alixaannencova

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2009, 10:04:37 PM »
Excuse me while I choke on my drink......Oh dear Larry....you have brought tears to my eyes!!!!!! I adore that one about being 'a little bit pregnant'...it's a real gem....I am still giggling as I try to compose this!!!


 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 10:11:26 PM by Toots »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2009, 10:51:07 PM »
Yes. He was so beloved that his father did not attend his furneral or nor was he given a proper furneral (with only two mouners).

Anyway, I think the Carey children (especially) Catherine, was born during Henry's affair with Mary Boleyn. The usual custom was that when the king favours a woman, the husband usually stand aside. That makes Catherine the strongest canidate for being Henry's natural daughter.

alixaannencova

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2009, 10:55:27 PM »
Eric you have done nothing to explain where you got this data that Richmond 'sort of died' after Edward VI was born. I thought Richmond died a full year and nearly two months before Edward VI was born! Please explain?

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2009, 11:02:10 PM »
Well I made a mistake on that, but it would only make sense that Henry VIII murder his son (Henry Fritroy) if he had a legitimate heir according to the book on Fritzroy. Anyway, it seems like Henry wasn't too concerned about Fritroy's death, judging from his simple and rushed arrangement on his furneral. Especially since he was an Earl and natural son of the king.

alixaannencova

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2009, 11:07:50 PM »
So...no surprise here then!!!!!  Goodness me.... some things never seem to change!!! I am so glad I asked for verification as facts are so very important in such matters. Sounds like that book about Richmond has some theories that may need a little more careful consideration before one jumps on the band wagon and starts spouting theories about suspected murder, when there was no legitimate male heir at the time of Richmond's actual death!!!!!!


« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 11:32:24 PM by Toots »

Offline Kimberly

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2009, 10:55:38 AM »
Well I made a mistake on that, but it would only make sense that Henry VIII murder his son (Henry Fritroy) if he had a legitimate heir according to the book on Fritzroy. Anyway, it seems like Henry wasn't too concerned about Fritroy's death, judging from his simple and rushed arrangement on his furneral. Especially since he was an Earl and natural son of the king.


Sorry, what tosh :-)
Henry Fitzroy was publicly exalted aged 6 at St Georges Chapel, Windsor. Installed as Knight of the Garter then formally created Duke of Richmond and also Somerset and the Earldom of Nottingham (all titles of Royal Association)
Letters Patent gave Richmond precedence over all dukes already created or to be created in the future (except legitimate issue of the King's body.) Large estates were settled on him and he was also made Lord High Admiral, Lieutenant-General North of Trent and Warden of All the Marches toward Scotland.
Henry entrusted funeral arrangements to Fitzroy's Father-in-Law (the Duke of Norfolk). The King gave orders that the corpse be wrapped in lead and was furious when he heard that the corpse was carried in a wagon, covered with straw and with only 2 attendants as mourners.
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alixaannencova

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2009, 03:34:34 PM »
Kimberly - thank you very much for your concise and historiographically 'sound' assessment of Richmond's circumstances and obsequies! I really did wonder if I had made a mistake!


Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2009, 03:40:59 PM »
In the new bio about Richmond. He sort of died after Edward VI was born. It was even suggested that he was poisoned.

Yes. It is interesting that Mary was fertile while Anne had such difficulty in having a child. That came to an end (finding an heir) when Edward was born, even though he was sickly. To think about it, all Henry VIII's children had some sort of aliment. From Richmond, Mary I, Edward VI to even Elizabeth I. That is not a healthy family, his sister Margaret Tudor's line was more robust in health.

Edward VI was not as sickly as is often suggested. Until his last years, there was no reason to think he wouldn't live to be as old as his father.
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Offline jehan

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2009, 09:26:19 PM »
Well I made a mistake on that, but it would only make sense that Henry VIII murder his son (Henry Fritroy) if he had a legitimate heir according to the book on Fritzroy. Anyway, it seems like Henry wasn't too concerned about Fritroy's death, judging from his simple and rushed arrangement on his furneral. Especially since he was an Earl and natural son of the king.

This has already been thoroughly debunked in this thread.  But really.  Henry may not have been an especially nice guy, but nowhere has it been seriously written that he might go aroung murdering his own children, legitimate or not, just because he had a legitimate heir (which of course, he didn't  at the time of Richmond's death).  It does NOT make sense.  At ALL.

There may (or may not) have been a certain amount of pressure to "get rid" of Mary from the Boleyn faction- but there is no evidence that Henry ever considered this- he was fond of all his children, in his way.
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There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in. 
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2009, 09:50:46 AM »
Well I made a mistake on that, but it would only make sense that Henry VIII murder his son (Henry Fritroy) if he had a legitimate heir according to the book on Fritzroy. Anyway, it seems like Henry wasn't too concerned about Fritroy's death, judging from his simple and rushed arrangement on his furneral. Especially since he was an Earl and natural son of the king.

This has already been thoroughly debunked in this thread.  But really.  Henry may not have been an especially nice guy, but nowhere has it been seriously written that he might go aroung murdering his own children, legitimate or not, just because he had a legitimate heir (which of course, he didn't  at the time of Richmond's death).  It does NOT make sense.  At ALL.

There may (or may not) have been a certain amount of pressure to "get rid" of Mary from the Boleyn faction- but there is no evidence that Henry ever considered this- he was fond of all his children, in his way.

I completely agree, jehan - in spite of her continued defiance over the course of the 'great matter' and her refusal to acknowlege Anne as queen, I don't think Henry ever considered 'getting rid' of Mary - after all, as a child she'd been his 'little pearl', and as an adult he remained fond of and proud of her. But we're straying a little from the topic here, sorry!
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Offline mcdnab

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2009, 05:34:11 AM »
By tradition monarchs did not attend funerals. Henry's grandparents Elizabeth Woodville and Edward IV didn't attend their daughter Mary or son George's funerals, Henry didn't attend his mother Elizabeth of York's funeral. A chief mourner was usually present though and that may have been the origin now that sees members of the Royal Family being represented at funerals by a member of the household even now they tend only to attend in person for family or very close friends funerals.

Yes. He was so beloved that his father did not attend his furneral or nor was he given a proper furneral (with only two mouners).

Anyway, I think the Carey children (especially) Catherine, was born during Henry's affair with Mary Boleyn. The usual custom was that when the king favours a woman, the husband usually stand aside. That makes Catherine the strongest canidate for being Henry's natural daughter.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: The Carey Children
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2009, 03:36:25 PM »
Spot on Mcdnab.
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