Author Topic: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site  (Read 24271 times)

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Offline Zvezda

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Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2009, 04:08:24 PM »
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Around 20 million (citing The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression by Stephane Courtois et al) to 35 million (citing A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia by Alexander Yakovlev) killed in all, from 1917 to 1991

The Black Book of Communism has been derided by the scholarly community for its factual inaccuracies and revisionist lies. Read how Mark Tauger discredits Werth's account of the 1933 famine, for example.

Citing Yakovlev as though he's an authority is bizarre, for he was not a historian, but was a washed-up politician whose policies brought about a catastrophe for Russia.

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250,000 executed by the Cheka during the "Red Terror" and Russian civil war. (citing The Cheka: Lenin's Political Police by George Leggett) But it could be much higher (see my sig)
About 6000 were executed in the Red Terror in 1918, which does not begin to compare with the White Terror, which murdered some 40,000 people in the Don Region under Krasnov's gangs. Kolchak's hordes shot about 25,000 people just in the Ekaterinburg region.

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Between 300,000 and 500,000 Cossacks killed or deported in 1919 and 1920 (known as "de-Cossackization"; not sure how many of these deaths overlap with the aforementioned Cheka executions - if at all). (citing The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression by Stephane Courtois et al)
The Black Book of Communism, which I showed to be an unreliable source, does not provide explanations for these dubious statistics. Scholarly works on the subject of deportations show that only some 40,000 Cossacks from the Terek region were resettled in parts of Ukraine; their land was distributed to poor Cossacks and indigenous Caucasians.

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Between 7.2 to 10.8 million deaths during dekulakization and collectivization - which caused a famine the regime used as a weapon against supposed "class enemies" (citing Stalin and His Hangmen: the Tyrant and Those Who Killed For Him by Donald Rayfield)
Rayfield, a professor of literature, is not a historian with competence to analyze an research Russian history. His semi-fictional book is not an academic work, but is geared largely aimed at a pop audience. Estimates on the death toll on the famine are about 4 to 5 million. As experts such as Mark Tauger show, the famine was by no means "used as a weapon", but was largely caused by natural disasters.

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Over 1 million Polish citizens deported by November 1940; 30% of whom were dead by 1941 (citing Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore) and 21,857 executed outright (i.e. Katyn) by the NKVD during the Nazi-Soviet pact (citing Autopsy for an Empire by Dimitri Volkogonov)
Scholarly works on the subject show that about 400,000 Poles were resettled in other parts of Russia in 1939-40. Almost all of them were released following the reconciliation between Russia and the London-based Polish regime in 1941. Citing Volkogonov  is inappropriate because he was not a professional historian, but was a member of some kind of military institute.


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A total of 34,250 Latvians and around 60,000 Estonians and 75,000 Lithuanians murdered or deported during Nazi-Soviet pact (citing Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore)
Those figures are too high, as scholarly work on the subject shows that about 10,000 just from Estonia were deported. Montefiore is not some kind of authority on the subject or Russian history in general.

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An estimated 4.5 million (citing Gulag: A History by Anne Applebaum) to 12 million (citing How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen by John G. Heidenrich) deaths in the Gulag from 1918 to 1956. 

Applebaum is not a historian, but is a hack for liberal circles in Washington. Her commentary on Russian politics has been extensively ridiculed for its hypocrisy and innuendo. Research by scholars such as Zemskov showed that about a million people were killed in the labor camps in a span of twenty years. Most of these deaths occurred during the war.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 04:10:28 PM by Zvezda »

Offline Zvezda

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Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2009, 06:22:24 PM »
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Under Stalin, about 200,000 people were executed there...200,000
The number of estimated bodies at Bykovinia is about 6000. During the war, no less than 7000 people were shot and buried by the German occupiers.

Offline Sergei Witte

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Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2009, 05:20:02 AM »


The review under the url shows that The Black Book is reliable.

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/jspesreview.htm
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 08:31:39 AM by Alixz »


RomanovsFan4Ever

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Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2009, 07:21:20 AM »
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Under Stalin, about 200,000 people were executed there...200,000
The number of estimated bodies at Bykovinia is about 6000. During the war, no less than 7000 people were shot and buried by the German occupiers.

The article it's from BBC, and I think that it's a reliable source, and in it it's written that about 200,000 people were executed, however, 200,000 or 6000 is the same, even if just one person would have been murdered, it would have been an horrible crime anyway.
So, I blame not just communism, but Nazism too...and as I said, I blame Tsars too for their faults.

Offline Zvezda

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Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2009, 04:32:19 PM »
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and in it it's written that about 200,000 people were executed
This book cites sources saying that the estimates of repressed people buried in Bykivnia ranges from 6,329 to 6,783. During the war, the German occupiers shot and buried at least 7000 in the region.

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The review under the url shows that The Black Book is reliable.
The book is not taken seriously by the academic community. Its methodology and factual inaccuracies have been thoroughly exposed by scholars. Courtois in particular engages in dangerous historical revisionism for the purpose of blurring Vichy and Nazi crimes. For example, the war criminal Papon attempted to introduce the Black Book as evidence during his trial. The book falsifies history with its attribution of one million deaths to communists while ignoring the fact that the war was attributable to U.S. aggression, as these scholars points out.

Also read how Professor Mark Tauger totally discredits Werth's account of the 1933 famine.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronstadt_Rebellion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_rebellion
I could just as easily point to the partisan movement against Kolchak in Siberia and Denikin in the south. Partisans in Siberia liberated vast regions from the White Guard even before the approach of the Red Army.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 04:45:52 PM by Zvezda »

Offline Sergei Witte

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Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2009, 06:30:37 PM »
@Zvezda

What do 'these scholars' point out. I can't see nothing concerning The Black Book on your link.
Tauger seemed neutral en well informed. This is only about a small part of the book however. I am still not convinced that The Black book is unreliable.

Please post some links to sources of the 'partisan movement against Kolchak' etc. Better still: open a new tread on this subject since this one is specifically about Communist Crimes.

Offline Sergei Witte

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Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2009, 04:40:39 AM »

RomanovsFan4Ever

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Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2009, 07:08:37 AM »
This book cites sources saying that the estimates of repressed people buried in Bykivnia ranges from 6,329 to 6,783. During the war, the German occupiers shot and buried at least 7000 in the region.

Thank you!, I'm sure that it is an excellent book (and I will try to order a copy for myself), but as I said in my previous post, even if just one person would have been murdered, it would have been an horrible crime anyway...and in the Bykivnia area were murdered 6,329 to 6,783 peoples, so we are still talking about a terrible mass murder, unfortunately, after replicated during the German occupation.

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2009, 03:46:07 AM »
Excuse me for saying so, but I absolutely must say so - Zvezda has already in numerous posts in this forum revealed herself to be a dyed-in-the-wool Stalinist and Russian nationalist, of the displaced variety (i.e., she lives not in Russia itself but in one of its former, now independent republics, where she constitutes a distinct minority, the former ruling minority, no less). The displaced variety is the worst, because many of them like Zvezda are hankering after a revival of the former Soviet empire. And any excuse will do.

Let's face it, please, at long last, the Nazis and Soviets were interchangeable in moral terms during this historical era. Their regimes perpetrated the mass murder of civilians, plain and simple. Innocent men, women, and children died in the tens of millions as a result of sick ideologies, both Communist and Nazi, run amok. Zvezda wants to convince us all that the Soviet crimes against humanity weren't so bad after all - I suppose she'd even blame the Katyn massacre of Polish officers on the Germans if she possibly could - but make no mistake, she is not being honest in her posts. She is being completely false. She is part of the Big Lie. And I really hate to say it, but I can't understand why this person is still allowed to post in this forum - if there were a Holocaust revisionist here who was citing David Irving to the effect that 6 million Jews did not perish under Hitler - on the contrary, it was a "mere" one million, and Hitler didn't know about it - then I think this person would be banned from the forum forever. And rightly so. But somehow Zvezda gets away with her completely irresponsible, even morally reprehensible statements and blatantly false conclusions. It's a mystery to me why she is allowed to remain here. Well, not such a mystery, really. Her very outrageousness stimulates discussion and debate. And most Westerners, no matter how sensitive they might be to Lenin and Stalin's crimes, are still not so sensitive that they regard them as the equivalent or even near-equivalent of Hitler's. Quel dommage. Kak zhal'. More's the pity. And so on. It really makes me sick.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 03:57:22 AM by Elisabeth »
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Offline Zvezda

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Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2009, 11:17:32 AM »
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the Nazis and Soviets were interchangeable in moral terms during this historical era.
That amounts to really offensive revisionism which slanders the people of Russia. Nothing equivalent to Auschwitz, Babi Yar, or the siege of Leningrad was perpetrated by Russia.
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if there were a Holocaust revisionist here who was citing David Irving to the effect that 6 million Jews did not perish under Hitler

I have said nothing equivalent to the lies of how six million Jews were not systematically exterminated. For you to claim the contrary is outrageous.

Offline Zecharia

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Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2009, 07:38:36 PM »
Excuse me for saying so, but I absolutely must say so - Zvezda has already in numerous posts in this forum revealed herself to be a dyed-in-the-wool Stalinist and Russian nationalist, of the displaced variety (i.e., she lives not in Russia itself but in one of its former, now independent republics, where she constitutes a distinct minority, the former ruling minority, no less). The displaced variety is the worst, because many of them like Zvezda are hankering after a revival of the former Soviet empire. And any excuse will do.

Let's face it, please, at long last, the Nazis and Soviets were interchangeable in moral terms during this historical era. Their regimes perpetrated the mass murder of civilians, plain and simple. Innocent men, women, and children died in the tens of millions as a result of sick ideologies, both Communist and Nazi, run amok. Zvezda wants to convince us all that the Soviet crimes against humanity weren't so bad after all - I suppose she'd even blame the Katyn massacre of Polish officers on the Germans if she possibly could - but make no mistake, she is not being honest in her posts. She is being completely false. She is part of the Big Lie. And I really hate to say it, but I can't understand why this person is still allowed to post in this forum - if there were a Holocaust revisionist here who was citing David Irving to the effect that 6 million Jews did not perish under Hitler - on the contrary, it was a "mere" one million, and Hitler didn't know about it - then I think this person would be banned from the forum forever. And rightly so. But somehow Zvezda gets away with her completely irresponsible, even morally reprehensible statements and blatantly false conclusions. It's a mystery to me why she is allowed to remain here. Well, not such a mystery, really. Her very outrageousness stimulates discussion and debate. And most Westerners, no matter how sensitive they might be to Lenin and Stalin's crimes, are still not so sensitive that they regard them as the equivalent or even near-equivalent of Hitler's. Quel dommage. Kak zhal'. More's the pity. And so on. It really makes me sick.

I think ZVEZDA is provokater :(

Offline Terence

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Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2009, 11:51:09 PM »
Excuse me for saying so, but I absolutely must say so - Zvezda has already in numerous posts in this forum revealed herself to be a dyed-in-the-wool Stalinist and Russian nationalist..

Let's face it, please, at long last, the Nazis and Soviets were interchangeable in moral terms during this historical era. Their regimes perpetrated the mass murder of civilians, plain and simple. Innocent men, women, and children died in the tens of millions as a result of sick ideologies...

Well said E.

T

Offline Sergei Witte

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Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2009, 07:55:56 AM »
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the Nazis and Soviets were interchangeable in moral terms during this historical era.
That amounts to really offensive revisionism which slanders the people of Russia. Nothing equivalent to Auschwitz, Babi Yar, or the siege of Leningrad was perpetrated by Russia.
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if there were a Holocaust revisionist here who was citing David Irving to the effect that 6 million Jews did not perish under Hitler

I have said nothing equivalent to the lies of how six million Jews were not systematically exterminated. For you to claim the contrary is outrageous.

First: you are confusing the people of Russia with the Soviet government. In another thread you were confusing Russian culture with Soviet culture. I think this is the REAL slander to the people of Russia.

Second: Nazism and Communism were both ideologies who declared state terror to be one of their official policies. Their goals were different only in a certain degree: Nazis wanted to wipe out other races 'in favour' of the Arians and Communists wanted to wipe out other social classes 'in favour' of the proletariat. Without denying many differences between the two these are certainly 2 common features. All right, you are not disputing the Holocaust here, but you are certainly denying the seriousness of the Communist crimes.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 07:57:35 AM by Sergei Witte »

Offline Zvezda

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Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2009, 12:24:55 PM »
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Communists wanted to wipe out other social classes 'in favour' of the proletariat.
This is not true. The policy of the Communist Party had always been to strengthen the alliance between the workers, peasants, and progressive sections of the intelligentsia. When the working-class fights against the ruling class, it seeks an alliance with many small and middle capitalist proprietors.

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First: you are confusing the people of Russia with the Soviet government. In another thread you were confusing Russian culture with Soviet culture. I think this is the REAL slander to the people of Russia.
There's no such thing as Soviet culture or Soviet nationality. In the Soviet Union there were 15 countries and dozens of nationalities, each of which was profoundly influenced by cultural developments during soviet power. The Soviet era, the golden age of Russia, cannot possibly be isolated from the nation's history and culture.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 12:27:17 PM by Zvezda »