Author Topic: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.  (Read 152200 times)

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #135 on: August 15, 2010, 10:28:25 AM »
The Genetic markers for Haemophilia were not tested on the Alexei remains.  Here is the entire original report for you to read.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0004838#s2

Please note this conclusion of the work : "we found that the DNA evidence is 4.36 trillion times more likely if sample 147 is a daughter of Tsar Nicholas II and Tsarina Alexandra, and over 80 trillion times more likely if sample 146.1 is a son of Tsar Nicholas II and Tsarina Alexandra than if these samples were from two unrelated individuals."


That is TRILLION.

There was no testing for haemophilia on either of the new remains done, if one reads the report.

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #136 on: August 15, 2010, 10:48:30 AM »
The Genetic markers for Haemophilia were not tested on the Alexei remains....
There was no testing for haemophilia on either of the new remains done, if one reads the report.

It's a pity they didn't test for genetic markers for hemophilia in any of the remains. Undoubtedly they would have found such markers not only in Aleksei's remains but also in Alexandra's and in some if not all of her daughters'. It's interesting that Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna believed, according to her biographer Vorres, that all four of NII and Alexandra's daughters were probably hemophilia carriers. Maria, for example, suffered a terrible hemorrhage having her tonsils out, and nearly died; and while still a toddler Olga suffered a huge, bulbous blue bruise from knocking her head against a table (according to N and A's own letters). Unusual and profuse bleeding, as well as a propensity to bruise easily and severely, are symptoms of female hemophilia carriers. But of course we'll never know the truth, unless their remains are tested again, which seems unlikely (and also undesirable from a moral standpoint if not a scientific one) since they have all already been interred with Orthodox rites.   
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Offline Grand Duchess Valeria

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #137 on: August 15, 2010, 11:20:32 AM »

There was no testing for haemophilia on either of the new remains done, if one reads the report.

There was one:

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2009/10/08-02.html

plus a documentation I've seen a few months ago in german TV.
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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #138 on: August 15, 2010, 11:40:35 AM »
I don't have access to the full article in Science.  Perhaps one of our readers does.  It does appear that Rogaev did go back and re test for hemophilia, as I found this more complete story online:

http://www.genomeweb.com/sequencing/study-finds-hemophilia-b-causing-mutation-russian-royal-remains

I stand corrected.

(I do have to wonder what JK makes of this report???)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 11:57:01 AM by Forum Admin »

Offline TimM

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #139 on: August 15, 2010, 03:05:16 PM »
Well, I don't suppose it matters much now anyway.  The remains have been ID'd, that is all that matters.
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Offline katherine2001

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #140 on: August 15, 2010, 04:17:09 PM »
The Genetic markers for Haemophilia were not tested on the Alexei remains....
There was no testing for haemophilia on either of the new remains done, if one reads the report.

It's a pity they didn't test for genetic markers for hemophilia in any of the remains. Undoubtedly they would have found such markers not only in Aleksei's remains but also in Alexandra's and in some if not all of her daughters'. It's interesting that Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna believed, according to her biographer Vorres, that all four of NII and Alexandra's daughters were probably hemophilia carriers. Maria, for example, suffered a terrible hemorrhage having her tonsils out, and nearly died; and while still a toddler Olga suffered a huge, bulbous blue bruise from knocking her head against a table (according to N and A's own letters). Unusual and profuse bleeding, as well as a propensity to bruise easily and severely, are symptoms of female hemophilia carriers. But of course we'll never know the truth, unless their remains are tested again, which seems unlikely (and also undesirable from a moral standpoint if not a scientific one) since they have all already been interred with Orthodox rites.   

Since none of the daughters married and reproduced, why would those tests have needed to be done?  Is it really our business if they were carriers or not?  Why would we need to know this?

Offline Grand Duchess Valeria

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #141 on: August 16, 2010, 01:53:44 AM »
If you are not interested in it than you don't have to read it  ;) But there are surely a few members here - like me - who are very interested in it. Its needed for scientific progress and quite awesome that we are no in the position to prove which kind of hemophiliae a boy had who lived nineteen years ago. And that only one sister was a carrier and contemporary witnesses - like Olga A. - were not right in suggesting that all the girls were carriers because of bleeding so much. For me, its quite interesting no matter if they reproduced or not.
And when he shall die, // Take him and cut him out in little starres, // And he will make the Face of heaven so fine, // That all the world will be in Love with night, // And pay no worship to the Garish Sun.

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #142 on: August 16, 2010, 10:22:46 AM »
I am glad the haemophilia testing was done and the question put to rest, for one reason and one only.  It finally shuts up an annoying journalist who had pretensions of biochemistry knowledge and hitched his wagon to a ludicrous claimant and could only crow that Alexei did not actually have haemophilia but some other blood disease to protect his reputation for backing an Alexei claimant.  Now at least, he can eat his well deserved crow for dinner.


Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #143 on: August 16, 2010, 12:14:32 PM »
Here is what I was told:

Testing for genetic markers  was done on all of the purported children of Nicholas and Alexandra.

Olga, Tatiana, and Maria were not carriers of hemophilia, so the disease would not have been passed on to their children.
Anastasia tested positive as a carrier of hemophilia, so her children could have had the disease or been carriers.
Alexei had hemophilia and I believe his daughters would have inherited the disease from him.

I was kept informed throughout the testing. I am not a scientist (I only made it through Biology because my girlfriend did the dissections and I did the lab notes!) and not a geneticist. Any misunderstanding of how this disease is passed down to the next generation is my own and not the scientists.

I was told that hemophilia tends to breed out quickly from families as it did with QV's in a few generations.

Offline Silja

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #144 on: August 16, 2010, 02:54:53 PM »

plus a documentation I've seen a few months ago in german TV.

Which channel was it on? I always check for respective programmes on my favourite subjects, but there was no programme I came across in the last few months. Would be annoying to know to have missed it.

Offline Grand Duchess Valeria

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #145 on: August 17, 2010, 04:56:32 AM »
I thought on vox  (maybe at bbc) or on zdf. I don't know it exactly anymore... :(
And when he shall die, // Take him and cut him out in little starres, // And he will make the Face of heaven so fine, // That all the world will be in Love with night, // And pay no worship to the Garish Sun.

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #146 on: August 17, 2010, 11:35:54 AM »
Here is what I was told:

Testing for genetic markers  was done on all of the purported children of Nicholas and Alexandra.

Olga, Tatiana, and Maria were not carriers of hemophilia, so the disease would not have been passed on to their children.
Anastasia tested positive as a carrier of hemophilia, so her children could have had the disease or been carriers.
Alexei had hemophilia and I believe his daughters would have inherited the disease from him.

I was kept informed throughout the testing. I am not a scientist (I only made it through Biology because my girlfriend did the dissections and I did the lab notes!) and not a geneticist. Any misunderstanding of how this disease is passed down to the next generation is my own and not the scientists.

I was told that hemophilia tends to breed out quickly from families as it did with QV's in a few generations.

Hi, Lisa, I'm confused. Were these Russian or British or American tests? Because as everyone here knows there was a huge controversy between the American and Russian experts as to which daughter was missing from the first grave. The Russians insisted it was Maria, while the Americans were equally vehement that it was Anastasia (meanwhile one Russian specialist commented that with daughters so close in age to each other, it was actually impossible to distinguish one from the other scientifically, and anyone who claimed to be able to do so was being less than aboveboard - I tend to trust his point of view the most).

So I am curious, because judging from the results it sounds as if these DNA tests for hemophilia were conducted in Russia. But can you confirm this? Was it Professor Rogaev and his team?
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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #147 on: August 17, 2010, 12:31:48 PM »
The haemophilia testing was done by Rogaev and his team. Please read the link I posted, it should answer most of your questions. The "controversy" is pretty moot now, as all girls are accounted for, so who cares at all if the Russian or US were "right" about identifying Anastasia or Maria initially...both are conclusively now found.


Offline Elisabeth

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #148 on: August 17, 2010, 01:51:34 PM »
Thanks, FM, as I said, I was confused. Of course, obviously, all the remains of the IF such that could be recovered, have been recovered, and along with servants and doctor all totaled accounting for eleven souls. It's just that, you have to understand, some of us here want to dot all the i's and cross all the t's, not because we doubt that the IF was murdered in Ekaterinburg on the night of July 16-17, 1918, but because we actually care about the individuals involved and sincerely want to know, in this instance, whether it was Anastasia or Maria who actually had the DNA markers of a hemophilia carrier. It would be ironic and horribly tragic in Maria's case, if she was the carrier, because she so wanted to have children. But of course we'll never know for sure one way or the other, and in the wider, historical sense, you're right, it counts for nothing.

Still, I thought this was one place where the IF still counted for something, as individuals.
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Offline Grand Duchess Valeria

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #149 on: August 17, 2010, 03:04:08 PM »
I couldn't say it better. Thanks!
And when he shall die, // Take him and cut him out in little starres, // And he will make the Face of heaven so fine, // That all the world will be in Love with night, // And pay no worship to the Garish Sun.