Author Topic: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor  (Read 41665 times)

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Offline Helen_Azar

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The DNA was mixed with this childís blood and it came from a Caucasian male. It did not match anyone in her family or their circle of friends. The DNA has been put in a national database in hopes of finding a hit, so the DNA is being taken very seriously. I think it is a bit of a double standard for people to go by the DNA to exclude Karr, but then not exclude her parents. Besides, there is quite a bit of evidence supporting the intruder theory, and that first link I posted (the link that provided information that DNA cleared her parents) informs readers about that evidence. In that first link, it talked about another unsolved crime in Boulder that was very similar to JonBenetís case. A man broke into a home a few months after JonBenet was murdered. He waited for the family to come home and then when everyone was sleeping, he started to attack the girl while her mother was sleeping nearby. He fled out a window after her mother heard a noise and went to investigate. I will also provide another link, in case anyone is interested in reading about the intruder evidence.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14395331/site/newsweek/

But now I will kindly bow out, because I fear this thread has strayed from the original topic. DNA excluded two people from being who they claimed to be, and I think that is important for people to remember. It shows the power of DNA.


Thank you Raegan, I think you understand exactly where I am coming from with this topic and what my intentions were. And BTW, I agree with your assessment of the Ramsey case. It is quite clear that the DNA derived from the child's underwear (which was consistent with the DNA they got from under her fingernails) came from her killer, thus ruling out not only JM Karr but also anyone in the Ramsey family including her parents. But this is yet another example of how easily misinformation in a given case can get around among spectators (just as it did in the AA case).




Offline CorisCapnSkip

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Michael Tracey = overzealous professor who made three documentaries bent on proving the Ramsey parents' innocence.  Far from objectively portraying the facts, his documentaries had an agenda to PROVE the parents' innocence, rather like the agendas of some to prove Anna Anderson was Anastasia at all costs.   ::)  He also may have had an agenda to bring in the "real killer."  In that way he parallels Gleb Botkin in the AA case, who had an agenda to find a surviving Romanov child, and, if one weren't to be had, create one by providing information to the nearest reasonable facsimile.

As for people really believing they're someone they're not, well, there's David Letterman's "wife" (Margaret Ray--schizophrenic  :-[) and I read once that author Alexandre Dumas at the end of his life really believed himself to be his own fictional creation, the Count of Monte Cristo, and sailed off with a girl he believed to be Princess Haydee.

Offline CorisCapnSkip

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People also claimed to be Billy the Kid, Jesse James, and Butch Cassidy, and a man had a mummy he claimed to be that of John Wilkes Booth.  http://www.historybuff.com/library/refbooth.html  All either unproven, or proven to be untrue, but some people still believe them.

Offline Eddie_uk

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Hello to you Eddieboy_uk,

Yes, I felt sorry for both the mother and father, and their son. It has become such a nightmare, that i have heard the father has decided to move to europe, because of all the issues the press has brought about. I think they could have handled it all much better than they had. It is and has been quite distressing inmho, and I'm not even a member of the family. But, I can see how much pain this can bring to parent's of a child who has been murdered. Nice to see you posting Eddie :). Take care.

Tatiana+

Thank you Tania. All in all a very sad story   :'( :'( :'( :'(
Take care  xxx
« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 05:51:24 AM by Eddieboy_uk »
Grief is the price we pay for love.

FREE PALESTINE.

Offline Annie

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People also claimed to be Billy the Kid, Jesse James, and Butch Cassidy, and a man had a mummy he claimed to be that of John Wilkes Booth.  http://www.historybuff.com/library/refbooth.html  All either unproven, or proven to be untrue, but some people still believe them.

Oh yes, I've heard about them all and they're very interesting. I think most of them have been proven frauds by DNA too. There may still be one or two they are still llooking for a female maternal relative to test (and yes the DO make sure it's a real, whole sister before they test!) unless they've found them since the last reports I saw.

Quote
I read once that author Alexandre Dumas at the end of his life really believed himself to be his own fictional creation, the Count of Monte Cristo, and sailed off with a girl he believed to be Princess Haydee.

This is like actor Johnny Weismuller coming to believe he was really Tarzan in his old age and running down the road making the famous yell :-[ It is sad and strange how the mind can mix fantasy and reality.

Offline Robert_Hall

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I think Bela Lugosi also merged with his Count Dracula role. Even being buried  dressed as the Count.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline AGRBear

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Having many friends who are or were  DAs,  I have to sit back and show my disatisfaction face   :-\ at the so-called facts that some of you have based your conclusions.  Haven't any of you realized that everything you read in the newspaper or hear on the television isn't necessarily true???

I agree with many lawyers who deal in criminal cases that there should be a "gag" order on all criminal cases until after the trial and verdict.

The only  reason this hasn't been set into law is because once upon a time, the press helped keep a check and balance in regards to a person rights in being given a fair trial.

Today, too many of our  modern reporters have run amuck and have became barriers of "sensationalism" instead of investigative reporters who are looking for the truth.

Arm chair sleuths, who read these  "sensationalize" reports in their newspapers or watch this stuff repeated by television reporters,  can become dangerous when they jump to conclusions without knowing the "real" evidence which would be present in a "real" court trial.  Why are they dangerous?  Because  these people  sometimes become hysterical mobs who drive public opinion into thinking someone is guilty or inoscent based on these so-called facts which may be nothing more than garbage in and garbage out.

The moral of my story is: 
"Truth, sir, is a profound sea, and few there be who dare wade deep enough to find the bottom of it."

Farquar, THE BEAUX' STRATAGEM.  Act v, sc. 1.


AGRBear
« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 11:29:43 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Helen_Azar

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The latter (mitochondrial) type of DNA testing most certainly is *not* capable of identifying specific individuals.  It can only *indicate* -- but *cannot* prove -- a possible maternal connection between the individuals being compared.  It has *never* been well tested in the courts.

BTW, you are wrong in this case too, about mtDNA "never been well tested in courts". I refer you to the case of Tracy Jo Shine, whose murderer Michael Neal was charged and convicted based strongly on mtDNA evidence. There are other examples in the legal system...   

".... In 1987, Shine disappeared after giving police information about Michael Neal--her boyfriend--as part of a plea agreement in a drug case. Detectives quickly came to the conclusion that Neal killed Shine to keep her quiet, but a lack of hard evidence stymied the investigation. Years later, however, a mitochondrial DNA test provided the evidence needed to pursue the case... "  COLD CASE FILES episode, September 2, 2006, 7pm.   http://www.murdervictims.com/Voices/Tracy_Shine.htm





Offline Helen_Azar

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STATE V. WARE, 1999 WL 233592 (Tennessee, April 1999)

Procedural History: The defendant was convicted of felony murder and multiple counts of rape. He received concurrent 25-year sentences for each rape conviction and was sentenced to life without parole for the felony murder conviction. The defendant has appealed his convictions and sentences on several grounds, including whether the mitochondrial DNA evidence was properly admitted.

Facts: After spending the night drinking, the defendant went to the house where the victim, a four-year-old girl, was sleeping. He was a friend of the family and had stayed there on previous occasions. The victimís mother was out and a family friend was watching the sleeping children. When the defendant arrived, he said he was going to bed. He went to bed in the room where the victim was sleeping. The room contained two twin beds and the person watching the house assumed he would pass out on the empty bed.

Approximately an hour later, the mother, having recently returned home, went to check on her daughter. The door to the bedroom had been locked from the inside and when she knocked on the door no one responded. The mother picked the lock and when she entered the room, she noticed that both beds were empty and her daughterís clothes were crumpled up in the comforter. The mother then opened the door to a laundry room connected to the back of the bedroom and discovered the naked bodies of the defendant and her daughter lying on the floor. Looking blue and feeling cold, the daughter was rushed to the hospital where attempts to resuscitate her failed. The emergency room doctor testified that both the victimís vagina and rectum were torn.

The medical examiner determined the cause of death to be mechanical asphyxia. During his examination, the doctor found a hair stuck to the victimís lip, one touching the mucosa of her rectum and a third hair in the victimís pharynx. The police recovered additional hairs off the victimís bed. A special agent with the FBIís Hair and Fibers Unit testified regarding the testing he performed on the hairs found at the crime scene and on the victimís body. He concluded that the hairs from the bed and the hair in the victimís pharynx were consistent with having originated from the defendant. He pointed out, however, that hair comparison is not a means of making a positive identification and as such, he could not conclusively say if the hairs belonged to the defendant.

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) testing was performed by the FBI on the hairs recovered from the victimís throat and from a hair on the bed sheet. The DNA sequence obtained was compared with that of the defendantís saliva. The three samples shared a common sequence and none of the sample matched the sample taken from the victim. The FBI expert conducting the mtDNA testing explained that the hairs in question were consistent with having originated from the defendant, but that he could not assign a frequency rate to the results because the database for mtDNA population statistical analysis was not large enough to assign a frequency. He did mention that the sequence had never been observed in the FBI database of 742 individuals.

The defendant offered the testimony of a geneticist who testified that mtDNA typing was not scientifically reliable and that it had not yet been subjected to proper peer review or publication. (No admissibility hearing was conducted before the trial.)

Issue: Is mitochondrial DNA testing evidence sufficiently reliable to be deemed trustworthy and thus admissible?

Holding: Yes. Mitochondrial DNA testing is sufficiently reliable so as to be trustworthy and admissible.

Reasoning: In Tennessee, the Tennessee Rules of Evidence have replaced Frye in governing the admissibility of expert testimony on DNA analysis. In interpreting the applicable rules, the Tennessee Supreme Court has developed a two-step approach for trial courts to follow. The trial court must first determine if the evidence will substantially assist the trier of fact to determine a fact in issue. The trial court must then determine if the facts underlying the evidence are trustworthy. There is no requirement in the rules that the evidence be generally accepted.

While this court indicated that it was somewhat questionable as to whether the mtDNA testimony was such that it would substantially assist the jury, the court nevertheless concluded that the trial judge did not abuse his discretion in admitting the results. There was sufficient evidence in the testimony of the Stateís expert regarding the validity of mtDNA analysis for the courts to find it valid and trustworthy.

Even if the evidence had been improperly admitted, the court determined that this would have been a harmless error because absent a frequency rate, the testimony did not provide a strong basis for a lay person to reach a scientific conclusion.

Disposition: The judgment of the trial court was affirmed.

Offline zackattack

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But, my opinion has always been that the guilty party was her brother-accident-with the parents covering for him.

But wasn't the brother only 9 years old?

Still  I do think the family is guilty and it was an inside job. Her body was found in a secret room only the parents knew about, even the kids didn't know.They hid Christmas presents there!

The basement room is the biggest thing that reeks of it being an inside job. Look at all REAL criminal abduction cases- Elizabeth Smart, Polly Klaas, Lindbergh baby- they grabbed the kid and went immediately out the window. The main objective is to GET OUT and RUN. The LAST thing a criminal is going to do is to stay in the house, much less go down into the most obscure part of the house where he could be easily boxed if caught! And how could he make all that noise and have NO ONE hear? Add to that that the amount asked for in the ransom note was exactly the same as the Dad's Christmas bonus ($118,000, not a nice round number) and it really seems something is up. I do not think they meant to kill her, and maybe they had been raping her many times before. It's a sad, sad story.

Quote

I could be wrong but to me the idea that it was the brother-accident- and the parents were covering for him, to me, makes the most logical sense. In the beginning there was their insistence-to the point of hysteria- that he was asleep the whole time and they never bothered to wake him. But then, the enhanced 911 tape was released to the general public. After she made the call, the mother forgot to hang up the phone. In the background the boy can be heard screaming:

Boy: Please! Please! What do I do?!

Father: We're not talking to you!

Mother: Help me Jesus! Help me!

Boy: But what did you find?

The boy swore he was asleep the whole time, the parents swore their son was asleep, and when they were confronted with this
tape, they claimed that it was "doctoured" and "faked"-as if those FBI  tech guys wouldn't have anything better to do with their time! ::)

Then there was another stranged appearance that the parents made on Larry King live. They went on TV to confront one of the FBI detectives who had written a book, flat out, accusing them of having commited the crime. The detective went through a list of evidence, then came to the part about the ransom note, and stated that alone out of 40 to 60 people Patsy could not be discounted as the author of the ransom note.

Well, instead of bringing up the point that handwriting analysis is total subjective and there is great room for error because human judgement
is involved, the father comes back with:

Father: You're telling me that because my wife alone, out of 50 people could not be discounted as the author of the ransom note that
that makes her a murderer! Well, I tell you that that does not make her a murderer!!

Well, does that make her the author of the ransom note? He didn't defend his wife at all from the accusation of having written the note. Only that that doesn't make her a murderer.    And, if he's the guilty party, why isn't he being defensive? Why would he run the risk of blowing his cover?

And what are the odds that the ransom note would have been written for the benefit of a complete stranger?

IMHO, they've made many little goofs like that over the years. 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2006, 03:00:03 AM by zackattack »

Offline zackattack

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Just a friendly reminder that this thread is not about who killed JonBenet and why, but about the parallels between the Karr case, Anderson case, and other cases like it - i.e. false claims and ruling them out through science.

Thanks!  :)

You're right ! Sorry about that Helen! :-[

Offline Annie

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Bringing forward since Alixz brought up the topic of Sommersby!

Offline Helen_Azar

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IMO, the Sommersby/Martin Guerre factor would work much better with Michael Romanov rather than Anna Anderson  ;).

Offline Annie

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Yeah, what a story if he were alive! Somebody write a book! :D

Gee I had forgotten how this had degraded into a 'was AA a Soviet agent' thread! Remember the old 'Cheka plant?' ;) Almost as groovy as the chimera! :o


Offline Helen_Azar

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Yeah, what a story if he were alive! Somebody write a book! :D

I have no doubt someone will...  ;)

Remember the old 'Cheka plant?' ;) Almost as groovy as the chimera! :o

Nothing is as groovy as the chimera.