Author Topic: Help with shoulder board  (Read 10675 times)

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Offline mpb

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Help with shoulder board
« on: August 05, 2013, 02:18:00 PM »
Hello,
Can anyone help identifying this shoulder boards I suspect it may be an early soviet Air Force board with imperial emblems. Any info would be much appreciated.




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Re: Help with shoulder board
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 03:02:11 PM »
Certainly not Soviet.  That is the cypher of Emperor Nicholas II.

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Help with shoulder board
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 04:09:44 PM »
Just as a version: Rittmeister (cavalry captain) of the 1st squadron (N-II sign and crown) of the Cuirassier of Her Majesty Regiment (golden cloth and blue stripes).
"I think that if Shakespeare lived in our times he would not be able to write. Many of his works are not welcome on stage nowadays: The Merchant of Venice – anti-Semitism, Othello – racism, The Taming of the Shrew – sexism, Romeo and Juliet - hideous heterosexual show..." - Vladimir Bukovsky.

Offline mpb

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Re: Help with shoulder board
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2013, 04:20:52 PM »
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I don't know if its visible in the photo, but it appears that there were three stars in the area where the Nicholas cipher currently is.  If you look carefully at the photo, on the middle blue stripe that runs down the center of the shoulder board, just above the center part of the N, is an area where the cloth is not faded in the shape of a star, suggesting that the a star shaped pin was once there. Another area, below the N, on the gold lace are two pin holes suggesting another two stars were once there. Would that suggest a promotion? Or are these boards a mix of soviet and imperial items pieced together?

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Help with shoulder board
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2013, 08:11:47 PM »
I must point out that the Soviets banned shoulder boards/epaulettes as a symbol of Czarism until January 1943 when they brought them back along with a czarist style tunic with a stand up collar. During the Russian civil war White officers who were taken prisoner by the reds sometimes had their epaulettes nailed to their shoulders.

Offline Daniel Briere

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Re: Help with shoulder board
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2013, 10:23:20 AM »
mbp: How wide is your shoulder board? The Soviet ones were narrower than most of the Imperial Russian ones from Nicholas II's time ( which were approx. 65 mm wide). The shoulder board's lace pattern definitely looks Soviet to me. As for the monogram it could be real or fake (he Russians are quite good at making "repros" makes these days) but the crown should be closer to the NII. Its current location probably hides a hole where a Soviet star or other insignia probably was.

Will post photos of Imperial & Soviet pogoni (shoulder boards) and more info later.

Daniel Briere

Offline mpb

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Re: Help with shoulder board
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2013, 02:53:01 AM »
Daniel, the boards are approx 63 mm wide. From what I understand the crown with the cipher indicates the rank of a captain. Interestingly the rank below captain is a " staff" captain which would have two vertical midline stars with two horizontal stars at the base. Could it be that the previous owner of the boards was a staff captain who was promoted to the rank of a captain and thus the stars removed and replaced with a crown and cipher?  This would explain the presence of the outline of the stars beneath the N11 cipher. It doesn't appear as though there was any attempt to cover them up the outline of the stars as they are readily apparent.  I can post photos of the back as well. The wool material is comparable to other fabric from other European items that i have that are pre ww2.

There is also a stamp underneath the strap perhaps someone can translate/intemperate.

You can also see the  exposed cardboard.




« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 02:56:56 AM by mpb »

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Help with shoulder board
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2013, 04:09:26 AM »
MPB

I think your suggestion is quite possible. In Britain, a Captain has 3 'pips', a Major a single crown.  In the days before combat kit was worn most of the time, the proper 'barrack dress' was pullover or shirt with metal rank badges (held in place by split pins). It was far from uncommon to see Majors wearing shirts with two extra sets of holes.

Ann

Offline Mike

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Re: Help with shoulder board
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2013, 05:45:24 AM »
This shoulder board is 100% Soviet, most probably Air Force. I've thought so even before seeing the stamped strip, now I'm quite sure. The large letters on the stamp read УПТВА, which was a well-known Soviet manufacturer of military gear in the 1940s - 1950s. While the whole composition is a fake, the board itself is a genuine after-WW2 item.

The cipher and the crown ( in this case, most probably a modern copy) had nothing to do with the rank of captain. They were worn, irrespective of the officer's rank, by the officers of the Imperial Suite and by all officers of His Majesty's Own companies (usually 1st Company) in those regiments where the emperor was colonel-in-chief.

Offline mpb

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Re: Help with shoulder board
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2013, 08:50:46 PM »
Well that's a bit of a downer...

Offline Daniel Briere

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Re: Help with shoulder board
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2013, 08:27:43 PM »
Here are some photos of genuine Imperial Russian shoulder boards for junior officers (2 « stripes » of lace instead of 3). There were some varitions in overall width and pattern of the lace: for instance the number of « checkerboard » lines varied but there design were always the same and clearly different than the Soviet one which had a wave-like design instead of the regular imperial checkerboard one. The 2 borders on each side of the strips of lace were also slightly different than the Soviet ones and were usually « raised ».





As Mike pointed out, the stamp was a giveaway, but they’re rarely visible on Imperial shoulder boards. I understand your disappointment. See it as a learning experience! We’ve all made mistakes and got caught at one point or another with fakes or replicas on our hands. The key is getting reliable information and seeing as many real items as you can (either on close-up photos from trustworthy sources or genuine pieces in museums).

Daniel
Daniel Briere

Offline Mike

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Re: Help with shoulder board
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2013, 02:55:29 AM »
Nice examples of ciphered shoulder boards. Particularly interesting are those with red stripes carrying the Peter I cipher - not of the Russian czar's but of the Serbian king's of the same name. In 1911 he was made colonel-in-chief of the 14th Olonetsky infantry regiment stationed in Łomża, Poland.

Offline Daniel Briere

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Re: Help with shoulder board
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2013, 08:14:30 PM »
Mike, thanks for posting the information I should have provided regarding the 14th King of Serbia's Olonetsky Regiment. Here are large size photos of a greatcoat pattern shoulder board from the same regiment, with the metal cypher instead of the embroidered one. As it was in my possession for a while, I mounted it on modified Soviet coat to see how it would have looked like.





The two other shoulderboards I previously posted are (No. 14) from the 8th Moskovsky Grand Duke Friedrick of Mecklemburg-Schwerin's Grenadier Regiment: although he had been chief since 1897  this "pogon" seems to be from 1904-1907 as it has an eagle button.

As for No. 13, it looks like from the Border Guards to me (8th Brigade) with faded gilding, no?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 08:16:45 PM by Daniel Briere »
Daniel Briere

Offline Mike

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Re: Help with shoulder board
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2013, 01:31:42 AM »
Daniel, your overcoat reconstruction looks very authentic. The shoulder board with green stripes is indeed the 8th Grayevskaya Border Guard brigade.

Offline Daniel Briere

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Re: Help with shoulder board
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2013, 10:42:05 AM »
-:)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 10:44:51 AM by Daniel Briere »
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