Author Topic: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated  (Read 267710 times)

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Offline pushkina

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #60 on: November 24, 2004, 12:40:33 AM »
i've always wondered about the scurrilous pamphlets which circulated in petersburg before the revolution.  i'm assuming that they were like the ones in paris re: marie antoinette before the revolution there.

has anyone ever seen any of these pamphlets about AF and rasputin? are there collections of them anywhere?  i know that they were privately printed, semi- (or more)pornographic libels against the empress and the crown.  

anyone?
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Offline Olga

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2004, 01:59:54 AM »

Offline pushkina

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2004, 07:18:03 AM »
great olga, but that one i've seen.

were there others?  did no scholar collect them?
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Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2004, 10:12:27 PM »
In the Orthodox church we have many saints who may not have been 'nice' people - and who died for political reasons - for example we can mention St. John Chrysostom who said bad things about the Empress and suffered for it.

Saint Vladimir - Saints Boris and Gleb - well we can even mention St. Constantine - the 13th Apostle - should any of these have been made saints?

There were many people who hated St. Elizabeth when she was alive - just as there were others who disliked Mother Theresa...

I know there are people who have a hard time accepting Alix as a saint - you can imagine how members of the Romanov family feel about that!  I've heard it first hand.  Of course, none of them are Orthodox believers either.

I know I have felt Alix's presence in my life since I was a child and I am always grateful for her interest in me and the help she always seems to be to willing to give.  As far as I am concerend she has always been a saint for me and I am eternally in her debt.

I have never felt the same way about Demetrius, George, or any other saint in the Church from way back in time.

Bishop Vasili (Rodzianko) spent many hours explaining the meaning of the Imperial Family's martyrdom and the reason the suffered and died.  It was very hard for me to understand the explanation.  I still don't think I do completely.

Bob

rskkiya

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2004, 08:45:53 PM »
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Bishop Vasili (Rodzianko) spent many hours explaining the meaning of the Imperial Family's martyrdom and the reason the suffered and died.  It was very hard for me to understand the explanation.  I still don't think I do completely.

Bob


Bob?
Could you direct me to either the good Bishop's writings or to a website where this paradox might be explained in detail ?

I'm most curious...  
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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2004, 09:52:47 AM »
Bob said that Bishop Vasily's lectures were broadcast mostly on the radio in Russian and published in Russian language journals. He does not know specifically of English language versions available, but his friend Maria Tolstoya is a relative of Bishop Vasily, and Bob will be speaking with her soon and will ask her about this for you.

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #66 on: December 02, 2004, 06:45:59 PM »
Also, I wanted to say that one churchman (Russian bishop maybe) who knew Alix personally had nothing but good to say about her, except for one thing - he criticized her love of dresses and jewelry.  Alexandra knew she had this 'vice'.  Maybe it came from not having very many dresses in comparison to her sisters and other members of Victoria's family when she was growing up.

Bob

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #67 on: December 25, 2004, 10:07:40 AM »
all the european royal families are intermarried, so really nicholas was not completely russian as his mother was danish and his father had other cultural heritage. alix was not given a chance by the rest of the family which was their fault. both of them were not cut out to rule as they were family people so i think that it was doomed from early on and they should have had some sense to listen to the people. alix and nicolas were the last straw i think (for the people)
selina            xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Offline Teddy

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #68 on: December 25, 2004, 12:00:03 PM »
Alexandra is not to blame. It already started with Tsar Paul. If he had not make that stupid family law, that female descendants can't take over the throne then there was Alexandra not so anxious to get a son! Etc, etc...

« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 01:48:19 AM by Alixz »

Offline jtareb

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2005, 11:21:34 PM »
To blame Alexandra for the revolution and beyond is revisionist history at its worst. The depth and complexity of Russia's problems leading up to the revolution have been the subject of numerous books. One keeps crying out for a statesman like Lincoln or Washington to lead Russia out of the wilderness but that never happened.

Offline hissunnywife

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2005, 08:25:43 AM »
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I wouldn't be surprised if your work on the AP and this web site serves a spiritual purpose you may not even be aware of. Your work may help Alix - and other people - just as much as she helps you.
 


Totally agree with the above opinon and feel that Bob is used by God from his early childhood to do this.

Whether Alix and Nicky and children were Saints...Sainthood is a status of a spiritualy very evolved human being, which refers to the level of purification of the mind, intellect and ego which are layers around the soul. The lesser the layer the closer one is to God. Hence, it should not and cannot rest on the opinion of any church to declare Sainthood. Only a Saint can recognize another Saint.

A and N and children were obviously human beings above the average spiritual level of the times. They lived a life in tune with God and died in the same way. Am absolutely sure that God still guides them. Let us not forget that behind all apparitions, and all visions, there is only One God. He appears to us in the forms we beleive in. If for some people A and N and children are people which can help them go closer to God, then this is perfectly OK. It does not even matter how we call them.

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2005, 08:51:57 AM »
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I am grateful for the caution about using the word saint.  That is very helpful.  I used the word in a secular way, meaning that I did not want to gloss over anything.  

The question about cannonization is really interesting.  I believe that individuals are cannonized because they have refused to abandon their faith in God even when all human effort to save them has failed.  A perfect example is Saint Dymphna.    

Saint Dymphna was fourteen when her mother died. When her father Damon went insane because of his distress over the loss of his wife, his evil advisers told him to marry his own daughter. Dymphna fled from her castle in Ireland together with St. Gerebran, her confessor and two other friends.

Damon found them in a forest near Gheel, Belgium. He gave orders that the priest's head be cut off. Then Damon tried to persuade his daughter to return to Ireland with him. When she refused, he drew his sword and struck off her head. She was then only fifteen years of age. Dymphna received the crown of martyrdom in defense of her purity about the year 620.  

Dymphna was cannonized, not for her adherence to a religious doctrine, but for her love for God that was even more sacred to her than the sanctity of human life.


What an interesting story!  I can't help but question, though, how much did her decision have to do with god being "more sacred to her than the sanctity of human life" and the more obvious suggestion (how *truly* can it be anything else...) that she wanted to escape from a father who was a sick pervert.  I really do not see what "love for god" has to do with her actions.  Maybe she *did* love god, but it wasn't that love that made her flee.  

Offline JM

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #72 on: January 29, 2005, 09:44:23 AM »
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What an interesting story!  I can't help but question, though, how much did her decision have to do with god being "more sacred to her than the sanctity of human life" and the more obvious suggestion (how *truly* can it be anything else...) that she wanted to escape from a father who was a sick pervert.  I really do not see what "love for god" has to do with her actions.  Maybe she *did* love god, but it wasn't that love that made her flee.  

I wonder the same thing. This story reminds me of a "novel" that I read when I was in elementary school titled Catherine Called Birdy, or something like that. Anyway, it was sort of in diary format and Catherince would recite which Saint's name day it was that day, sort of half mockingly too. But yes, some of them were actually quite amusing. I doubt their scholastic quality somewhat but here are are a few:

11th day of February, Feast of Saint Gobnet, virgin and beekeeper

13th day of February, Feast of Saint Modomnoc, who first brought bees to Ireland

16th day of February, Feast of Saint Juliana, who argued with the Devil

18th day of February, Feast of Saint Eudelme of Little Sodbury, about whom nothing is known except that she was a saint and I do not know how we even know that

. . . and today:

29th day of January, Feast of Saint Julian the Hospitaler, who accidentally killed his mother and father and in his grief and remorse built a hospital for the poor. Patron of inkeepers, boatmen and travellers

I have no idea why I posted all this. lol

Offline pushkina

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2005, 07:00:20 PM »
the saint Daphna story reminds me of st. maria goretti, who, at the age of 12 when one of her father's farmhands tried to force himself on her with a kitchen knife, allowed him  to stab her 44 times (leading to her death) rather than give in.  before she died she forgave him. as this happened in 1911 (i think), the civil authorities of course imprisoned him for life for murder. somehow, out of this rather mundane crime of passion, sainthood followed for her.

as cynical 1970s teenagers, we elected her to be our class patron saint, of course with none of us having the intention of protecting our virtue so far.

but her story has always made me wonder about what turns a victim of a spectacular crime into a martyr.  yes, i know that it is the subsequent certification of miracles in her name, but still...
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 01:49:55 AM by Alixz »
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Offline griffh

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2005, 11:42:01 AM »
I think the point that I was trying to make about Alexandra by using the story of St. Dyphmphna was that Alexandra, regardless of her human failings, was a woman of faith.  And for that reason I can understand why she was cannonized.  Let me explain what I mean by faith.  

I had really never understood what a person of faith was until I saw the story of this man in NJ who had murdered his entire family, including his mother.  He had tried to live beyond his means, bought a big house and had his mother move in. Then, even though he was employed her started going through all of his mother's savings to stay afloat.  Then he was fired from his job so he pretended to go to work everyday for months until the final day when there was absolutely no money left and he would have to admitt everything to his family.  

Instead of admitting anything, he snuck back home early and he killed his mother, then waited for his wife to return home from shopping and killed her and the killed each of his children as they returned from school.  

He had led an outwardly "religious" life and had been very active in his local church.  At his first trial his minister took the stand and said that this man was a "man of faith" and that because of this he could not have committed such a hideous crime.  

Well somehow or other the man managed to escape during the trial and was finally found a decade later in Florida and was arrested and brought to trail again.  

This time the same minister took the stand and said, "Eleven years ago I said that this man was a "man of faith," but I was mistaken.  This man was not a man of faith.  When people with faith find themselves under unbearalble pressure and backed into a corner with no possible escape they turn to God in their desperation and ask for guidance.  People without faith become God.  

In her letters from captivity Alexandra never abandons her faith in God.  All through those frieghtening and depressing 16 months of arrest and captivity, inspite of witnessing the denigration of her husband and son and humiliation of her daughters, the destruction of her country and all that she believed in, Alexandra remains unmoved in her belief that God is still governing.  If she questions anything, it is her understanding of God.  

It is not that I think Alexandra fits very comfortably into the High Church Orthodox traditions of saintliness, but I think the Orthodoxy Church on a grassroot level supported her belief that God has the power to heal save mankind.  

Orthodox Church may have chosen to cannonize Alexandra because the could see through all of her human flaws, to her genuine piety in the face of unbearable personal agony and disgrace.  

The other thing I feel, and these are only intuitive feelings, is that perhaps the cannonization of the Imperial family is more about forgiveness that it is about saintliness.  I feel that the cannonization has initiated a healing process for the Russian people and has helped to destroy the guilt that had separated them from their own brilliant and glorious national heritage.