Author Topic: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated  (Read 267714 times)

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bluetoria

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #75 on: February 05, 2005, 02:34:41 PM »
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the saint dymphna story reminds me of st. maria goretti, who, at the age of 12 when one of her fahter's farmhands tried to force himself on her with a kitchen knife, allowed him  to stab her 44 times (leading to her death) rather than give in.  before she died she forgave him. as this happened in 1911 (i think), the civil authorities of course imprisoned him for life for murder. soemhow, out of this rather mundane crime of passion, sainthood followed for her.

but her story has always made me wonder about what turns a vicitm of a spectacular crime into a martyr.  yes, i know that it is the subsequent certification of miracles in her name, but still...


St. Maria Goretti wasn't canonized because she resisted the would-be rapist; it was because of the life she had lived until then (even though she WAS only young & perhaps hadn't had time to do anything really bad) but also because of the manner in which she forgave him and spent her last hours praying for him.
I believe that her mother should have been canonized because she also forgave him (forgave the man who had murdered her daughter!) & as a result of their forgiveness, the murderer repented & actually sat next to the mother at Maria's canonization ceremony :)

Offline Olga

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #76 on: February 05, 2005, 11:12:56 PM »
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Orthodox Church may have chosen to cannonize Alexandra because the could see through all of her human flaws, to her genuine piety in the face of unbearable personal agony and disgrace.


Agony and disgrace? She didn't suffer that much.  ::)

Offline matushka

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #77 on: February 06, 2005, 02:13:33 AM »
To know why the Orthodox Church canonize someone, one must see wich liturgical tittle was given to the new saint: for the imperial family, the tittle of "strastoterpsy", those who accepted their sufferings as christian. Before the canonization; the Russian orthodox Church had examined the question a long time, all the problem: the problem of Raspoutine; the problem of the abdication (the Tsar was blessed by Church as a tsar - pomazanny - he did not have to abdicate, to let the duty that God gave him); the problem of Nicolas Alexandrovitch' Church politic and politic in general; the religious character of the Impress. Despite all this problems, the Church decided to canonize them for their attitude in captivity and death. Not for their personnal holyness (in contrary of Elizaveta Feodorovna, who has an other liturgical tittle).
That is first. Second, the russian imperial family is as the head of all the New Martyrs: they symbolize all the other; symbolize that all christian from tsar to muzhik, from bishop to simple monk pay.
Third; russian people feel sometimes gulty for sins their ancesters; the canonization is something as a reparation.
And last, there may be (that is my supposition) some "church political" reason to canonization: the Russian Church must find unity with the Russian Church abroad (that will be soon, as we hope): this Church had canonized the imperial family in the 80th.
I would to add that the Imperial family is venerate as a family; of course, there are some icons of Nicolas; of Tatiana and others; but must of all, icons show them together. That is important. And for a lot of russian orthodox families, they are today a model of christian loving and loving God family.
I apologise for my terrible english, I hope that it is understandable und interesting for someone.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by matushka »

Offline matushka

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #78 on: February 06, 2005, 02:34:49 AM »
Rskkiya, you are totally right; they are NOT martyr in the real meaning of that word, that is the reason why they are called passion bearears. As Bob, I felt the protection of Imperial family in my all life.
Someone tell only a saint can recognize an other saint. In the Church point of vew, it is not totally true; of course, the Church (orthodox, but also catholic, of course!!) is made of sinners. But mysticaly the Church is saint, as we tell in the Credo: I believe in the holy... Church. She is saint as the Spouse of Christ, as the Communion of all them who receive the body of Christ and for this reason are saints, as liturgy tell us. So in this point of vew, you are right: a saint - the Holy Church - recongnize other saints!!
About Alexandra: I venerate her so much, but know her mistake. And I can not understand something: in Russian, before the Revolution, there were so many REAL startsy and saints; for example the holy starsty of Optino and many other. They also made miracles, they also read in souls. Elisabeth Feodorovna was in contact with them. Alexandra Feodorovna all the time choose some people like Raspoutine, Philippe, Mitia. The Tsarevitch'illness does not all explain. She liked discuss with such "bad" bishops lile Pitirim, Varnava and other; saints bishops she dislike. So tragical...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by matushka »

Offline Olga

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #79 on: February 06, 2005, 05:25:26 AM »
Don't worry, Matushka, your English is very good. Vash pyervi yazyk - russki?

Offline matushka

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #80 on: February 06, 2005, 06:31:22 AM »
moi pervy iazyk - frantsuzski. russkim vladeiu ne ploho.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #81 on: February 06, 2005, 08:59:02 AM »
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Have you ANY idea what torment it is for a mother to see one of her children almost dying from pain due to internal bleedings and not being able to do anything to alleviate his pain?


Yes, this is very true. But was this the reason why she got canonized? I don't think so... The canonization had to do with the way she died, not the way she lived.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #82 on: February 06, 2005, 09:01:01 AM »
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Alexandra Feodorovna all the time choose some people like Raspoutine, Philippe, Mitia. The Tsarevitch'illness does not all explain. She liked discuss with such "bad" bishops lile Pitirim, Varnava and other; saints bishops she dislike. So tragical...


AF seems to have had a very bad sense of judgment... about people and about events  :(.  

Mgmstl

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #83 on: February 06, 2005, 10:19:22 AM »
In the issue of AF suffering over the bleeding of her child.  Even though I am not an AF fan, I feel that she did suffer, ANY MOTHER would have suffered to see their child bleed uncontrollably and suffer.  I am sure there is a sense of guilt on her part in that suffering since she knew the gene came from her.  

I think she was tormented with guilt, over the suffering of her child.  I often wonder why she didn't try to have another child after Alexis, she was still young enough, and the chance that he wouldn't have the gene would be there.  However, that is just speculation on my part.

Her judgement was often clouded in her choice of  people and events.  

bluetoria

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #84 on: February 06, 2005, 11:31:29 AM »
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 I often wonder why she didn't try to have another child after Alexis, she was still young enough, and the chance that he wouldn't have the gene would be there.  However, that is just speculation on my part.

 


Perhaps she realized that Alexei would take up so much of her time; and she probably didn't know enough to realize that the gene wouldn't be there. Also she had suffered so much with sciatica etc. etc. during her pregnancies that perhaps she just couldn't face going through it again.

I agree with everyone about her unfortunate inability to choose advisors who might have helped her. (Why didn't she listen to Ella!!)

Offline griffh

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #85 on: February 06, 2005, 12:58:37 PM »
Hi Matushka

Thank you so much for your clear explaination of the type of sainthood conferred on the Imperial family.  I believe Bob had referred to the distinction of the different kinds of sainthood but I had not quite understood it until you explained it.  

Hi Darth Olga,

The agony and disgrace I was referring to was not only  about her ordeal with Alexis, it was more in the nature of the destruction of Russia which she lived long enough to witness and the denigration of husband and son's place in history, not to mention her daughter's future.  

Olga was old enough to have already been married.  She could have already been the Crown Princess of Romania if the Crown Prince Carol had appealed to her in the summer of 1914.  Her cousin Irenia, who was Olga's same age, was already married to Felix Y. and Olga was only two years younger than Zita of Bourbon Parma who became the new Empress of Austria in 1916.  Then of course there was the future of equisite Tatiana and her younger daughters.

Besides this I am sure that she felt that the revolution would bring the possible loss of Russia's intellectual and moral life and the loss of Russia's prestige among the Allied nations.  Russia made such sacrifices during the war and the revolution destroyed country's ability to share in the Allied victory.  

For instance just think of the bitter irony of Alexandra must have felt when when she learned in Feb. 1918 that Lenin had betrayed the Allies by making a separate peace with Germany by sighing the Treaty of Brest, the very thing that Alexandra had been unjustly accused of trying to secretly accomplish in between 1915-1916; an accusation some members of the Imperial family, the Duma and even the British believed was true.    

The agony and disgrace I am speaking of is about someone who felt it was their God-given duty to be the mother of a nation and someone who would live long enough to see every hope and every desire for the good of her country shattered and degraded.                                                                                          
I suppose I started thinking about all of this because of that last day, July 3 (16), 1918 when Tatiana read to Alexandra from the Prophet Obadiah: "Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle (the imperial symbol was a double headed eagle), and though thou set thy next among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the Lord" (1:4).        

 

Mgmstl

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #86 on: February 06, 2005, 03:10:37 PM »
With respect, there are those who think of her as a mortal, who made bad decisions on issues, and mad bad decisions regarding those who surrounded her, regardless of her beauty, or her post execution martyrdom.  It's not slander or attack, it's just personal opinion from lots of fact & years of reading.

I agree Bluetoria, she should have listened to Ella.

The course of history would be much different today if all of the "what-if's" had happened.  It is sad she did not have wiser friends or counsel.

Offline griffh

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #87 on: February 06, 2005, 09:13:17 PM »
Michael,  I certainly respect your point of view and agree with you that Alexandra was as mortal as you or I and that she had mortal faults.  I am not trying to defend her so much as question the arguements of her detractors and I really appreciate the opportunity of this forum because by interacting with other who hold differing views, it helps me to define more clearly what I am trying to get at.  

To me the Romanoff family was a family in crisis long before Alexandra appeared.  To paraphrase a russian historian, the Romanoff family had been unanchored by severe dissagreements over progressive reforms that were demanded of them; blinded by a past they needed to believe was perfect, holding deep grudges, and immobilized by uncertainty; a family confronted by problems its laws and traditions could not comprehend; a family where pride and appearances overruled its compassion and loyalty.    

I have to ask myself, what if Alexandra had met all the demands that the Romanoff family placed on her, would that have saved the dynasty, what if she had even been incarsarated in a monestary or even assassinated, would that have saved a dynasty paralyzed by anguished indecision and colossal misunderstanding?    

To me, the Romanoffs were holding a gun to their own head, while threatening Alexandra that if she made another move they would fire.  She ignored their threat and they fired.        





Offline Denise

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #88 on: February 06, 2005, 09:20:11 PM »
Griffh, you are certainly correct in that the family was divided.  I think that Alexandra's reticence to have a court life and withdrawal of her family to the Alexander Palace certainly exacerbated a fragile situation.  

There are certainly instances where we could look back and say "should have, could have" in regards to historical figures.  But we have not had to deal with the pressures they faced daily.  

Many times people may seem hard on Alexandra because what we do know about her is in light of EVERYTHING that was going on at the time.  But her day to day decisions appear to have been with the goal of keeping her family strong and preserving the autocracy for her son....

Denise


bluetoria

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2005, 08:36:56 AM »
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.  

But her day to day decisions appear to have been with the goal of keeping her family strong and preserving the autocracy for her son....

Denise



I often wonder if she would have been quite so determined to preserve the autocracy at all costs if Alexei had not been a haemophiliac. While, of course, she saw it as Nicky's God-given duty to uphold the traditions etc. & adhere to the promises he made at his coronation, it seems to me that, on a more human level, Alix's 'shame' that she had passed on the disease to her son, & her hours of agnoy watching him suffer, may have made her want to give him something else. She could not give him health...so she was determined to give him his 'inheritance.'