Author Topic: "English" branch?  (Read 12974 times)

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Offline DavidH

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"English" branch?
« on: November 07, 2008, 06:41:08 AM »
Maybe this has been discussed before - and if so apologies - but why does this part of the discussion forum have a tag line "English" branch?  There is no such thing as the 'English' royal family!  The Windsors are the BRITISH royal family and play a vital, and increasingly important, role in maintaining and celebrating both the diversity and the unity of the United Kingdom.

Offline Alexander1917

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Re: "English" branch?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2008, 10:20:39 AM »
Maybe this has been discussed before - and if so apologies - but why does this part of the discussion forum have a tag line "English" branch?  There is no such thing as the 'English' royal family!  The Windsors are the BRITISH royal family and play a vital, and increasingly important, role in maintaining and celebrating both the diversity and the unity of the United Kingdom.

The Windsors
The English branch of Romanov relations. 

as stated in the inventory of this web-site....the start point is the Imperial Family (Romanov) of Russia

Offline gogm

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Re: "English" branch?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2008, 11:16:40 AM »
One of Mr. Blair's actions was to "devolve" Scotland where anti-English sentiment runs very, very strong. They now have an independent parliament in Edinburgh. I agree with DavidH that it would be in order to re-title this forum "British."

The UK Royal Family's most important contribution to the UK has been to maintain island-wide unity by acknowledging the unique cultures of Scotland and Wales.

Offline DavidH

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Re: "English" branch?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2008, 11:17:19 AM »
Then perhaps the moderators can now change the line from 'English' to 'British'??

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: "English" branch?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2010, 06:46:46 AM »
Maybe this has been discussed before - and if so apologies - but why does this part of the discussion forum have a tag line "English" branch?  There is no such thing as the 'English' royal family!  The Windsors are the BRITISH royal family and play a vital, and increasingly important, role in maintaining and celebrating both the diversity and the unity of the United Kingdom.
How can you expect the powers that be, who misspelled Wittelsbach as Wittlesbach, to get such a trifle right!? :-)

But in the defense of the powers that be:
If you read some of the correspondence of the extended European royal clan of Queen Victoria's and Christian IX's descendants, like Nicholas and Alexandra, you will see that they referred to everything concerning their grandmother(-in-law)'s realm and subjects as "English", unless they specifically was describing something as "Scottish" or indeed even "Scotch", e.g. Balmoral.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 06:48:34 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: "English" branch?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2010, 07:00:21 AM »
I have been pointing this out for years. As well as there was "Tsar" of Russia= he was Emperor [since 1725] But to no avail.  Colloquials stick.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: "English" branch?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2010, 07:17:14 AM »
'If you read some of the correspondence of the extended European royal clan of Queen Victoria's and Christian IX's descendants, like Nicholas and Alexandra, you will see that they referred to everything concerning their grandmother(-in-law)'s realm and subjects as "English", unless they specifically was describing something as "Scottish" or indeed even "Scotch", e.g. Balmoral.'

There was nothing unusual at that time in using 'English' to mean 'Britiish', but times have changed.

Ann

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: "English" branch?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2010, 08:29:36 AM »
This is true. Ann.  But it was not correct No matter who  wrote it. Most royals were poorly educated, IMO.  And many were pretty dim at best.
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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: "English" branch?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2010, 09:05:23 AM »
Robert

I agree entirely. I'm simplysaying that 19th-early 20th century royalties did what was usual then.

Ann

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: "English" branch?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2010, 10:27:47 AM »
Perhaps they were thinking of the language, not the  country ? If the royals were anything, they were [and still are] multilingual. After all, they were calling thier German cousins long before there was a  unified Germany
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 10:36:26 AM by Robert_Hall »
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: "English" branch?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2010, 10:35:06 AM »
Perhaps they were thinking of the language, not the  country ?
No, they might have been badly educated, but not that ignorant. On the contrary I actually think some of them would have been amazed to learn that English was still not spoken in all parts of the realm of her Britannic Majesty (remote parts of Ireland, Wales, Scotland), unless they had encountered some strange place-names while out hunting at Balmoral, like the bothy Glas-allt Shiel, and had John Brown give them a Gaelic lesson.

BTW at least the Romanovs, as Russian-speakers, were used to differentiate between a demonym / country name and an ethnonym / language names : E.g. Nicholas II was Velikiy knyaz Finlyandskiy, but did not speak Finskiy jazyk. This handy distinction is also made in the Grand Duchy's once official language Swedish: A finländare, a Finlander, can be both Finnish- as well as Swedish-speaking, while a finne has finska as his mother tongue.

Strangely enough Finnish itself, with its 15 grammatical cases, does not make this distinction! :-)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 11:07:33 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: "English" branch?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2010, 10:52:45 AM »
  I beg to differ, FP,  as  the current Prince of Wales had to learn Welsh  for his  entitlement ceremony speech. I doubt he has used it since. Gaelic is not widely spoken in any of the realms. I know plenty of Scots, Irish and  Welsh and none of them were taught  their native languages.
   Maybe the new generations will be. It is is the same with native Americans- most do not their own tribal languages.  One thing  English, as a language has done is unify a very diverse world community.  Just as French did at one time.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: "English" branch?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2010, 11:10:09 AM »
I beg to differ, FP,  as  the current Prince of Wales had to learn Welsh  for his  entitlement ceremony speech. I doubt he has used it since. Gaelic is not widely spoken in any of the realms. I know plenty of Scots, Irish and  Welsh and none of them were taught  their native languages.
Oh, I was talking about the Victorian and Edwardian eras. Those were the times when the Gaelic languages (and to a smaller extent Welsh) went extinct for most practical purposes except in the most remote places.

I agree that the Prince of Wales is hardly a Welsh language revival enthusiast (and won't choose Arthur as his regnal name!), but I think he uses it occassionaly. After all, as a proponent of all things rural and holistic it is kind of an indirect part of his brand. His website features quite a lot of Welsh (I do realize he does not write that himself, though!) and he has acquired a country cottage in the Welsh-speaking countryside. There was some argument with local residents over planning permission, wasn't there, and I think he is smart enough to engage in the odd friendly chat (supervized by security agents, of course) in Welsh, with neighbours and other subjects elsewhere in the Welsh hinterland, to ingratiate himself.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 11:31:48 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: "English" branch?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2010, 01:10:23 PM »
The current Prince of Wales did spend a term (I think) learning Welsh at the University of Wales Aberystwyth in preparation for his investiture in 1969.

Quite a lot of Welsh is spoken in Wales but the distribution is very uneven. It is strongest in North Wales and other rural areas. The Prince's recent purchase is not far from Llandovery, in rural Carmarthenshire, which is a Welsh-speaking area. The big cities - Cardiff and Swansea - are very much English-speaking. I lived in Swansea for six years and literally never heard Welsh on the streets - in the rural hinterland it was quite different. That said, there is a strong drive for teaching Welsh, and quite a lot of schools which teach through the medium of Welsh.

The picture in Scotland is very different. Gaelic was never the language of the whole country, but only of the Highlands, and has not been revived to anything like the same extent as Welsh. In the Irish Republic, however, there has been a strong Gaelic revival (at any rate, passing the equivalent of an O level in Gaelic is necessaqry for civil service jobs).

Incidentally, Scots Gaelic is pronounced 'Gallic' and Irish Gaelic as 'Gaylic'.

Ann

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: "English" branch?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2010, 01:33:01 PM »
I lived in Swansea for six years and literally never heard Welsh on the streets - in the rural hinterland it was quite different.
I think that's extremely interesting, that there is such a sharp divide. (Or that the Welsh-speaking country people were alone when in town :-(

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The picture in Scotland is very different. Gaelic was never the language of the whole country, but only of the Highlands.
Since Gaelic died out in Deeside roughly at the time when Victoria and Albert made it Royal Deeside and in Angus well before the Queen Mother grew up, I think Princess Louise, Duchess of Argyll at Inveraray perhaps was the royal who lived closest to (or in?) a Gàidhealtachd?

Quote
In the Irish Republic, however, there has been a strong Gaelic revival (at any rate, passing the equivalent of an O level in Gaelic is necessaqry for civil service jobs).

One of the funniest TV shows I've ever seen was "No Béarla" (= No English), An Irish reporter's hilarious effort to travel around Ireland speaking only the republic's official language. He tried everything from getting directions at the tourist information, shopping, chatting in the pub, singing obscene songs as a street musician, having his car repaired, nightclubbing and political discussions in Belfast. Turns out very few Irish people can communicate in their country's official language, which they all learned in school, but there is always somebody nearby who actually knows Irish.
All episodes are on Youtube, but not all of them have English subtitles! Here is one that has: No Béarla
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 01:46:50 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »