Author Topic: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?  (Read 14481 times)

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Offline ashanti01

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Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« on: November 26, 2004, 10:04:53 PM »
This may have been discussed before, I couldn't find it, but this came up on a conversation earlier today.

When the Imperial Family was under house arrest and the talk of exile was in the air, there was much talk about the IF going to England.

Do to political reasons the offer which was extended was removed.

Nicholas and Alexandra may be have been doomed from the get go, but could Olga, Tatiana, Marie, Anastasia and Alexie have escaped if King George or another relative would have extended their hand. In other words were relatives only willing to save the entire family, not just the children?

Where there any attempts to save at least the children once it was beginning to appear that they may not survive the revolution?

Would Nicholas and Alexandra have allowed the separation?

Offline Grand_Duke_Alexei

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Re: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2004, 10:08:49 PM »
I am sure that Nicky and Alix would have allowed at least the older sisters to go with relatives.  They may have wanted to hold on to Marie, Anastasia, and Alexei because they were still young.
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Offline Lanie

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Re: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2004, 10:18:28 PM »
I do know Victoria Milford-Haven wished for her nieces and nephew to be with her, and even tried to get them to come to England and stay with her and her husband.  The children weren't under arrest, I don't think--just N&A.

I do not think N&A would have let them go anywhere nor hear of such talk, since Alix was so possessive of her children and didn't want them going anywhere without their parents.  I bet the children (perhaps not Olga, but the others certainly) wouldn't dream of going anywhere without "Mama and Papa".

Offline Dasha

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reeRe: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2004, 12:52:40 AM »
Excellent points Lanie.  I happen to agree with you whole heartedly.  The family was very close, and the children would not have dreamed of going anywhere without their parents and each other.  Olga was a young woman with pretty high intelligence level and intuition, but I doubt that even she would have left knowing that she may never see her parents or siblings again.  Of course we are never going to know what was inside their heads, but since Alix was a possessive type of a mother, I'm pretty sure she would have never allowed for any sort of separation.  Nikolai, if perhaps given the right circumstances and the right person who would do the talking may have made a differnt decision, but again, it is not to be known.  

I'm not going to go into any deep thoughts and theories right now, because it is rather late, and my thining abilities are rather lowdue to fatigue.  I will simply end on this note.

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Offline Olga

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Re: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2004, 04:13:07 AM »
I don't think Alexei Nikolaevich would have been allowed to leave, given his position. As callous as it sounds, I think it was expected he would be executed with Nikolai Alexandrovich and Alexandra Fyodorovna.

Offline Alice

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Re: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2004, 06:23:24 AM »
I really don't think the Bolsheviks gave a damn if they killed just N and A, or all of them (obviously).

I don't know if N and A ever thought their children would be killed along with them. They probably had their suspiscions that they might be killed, but I doubt they thought that their children would be.

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Re: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2004, 10:16:54 AM »
Lenin's plans, from the evidence in GARF that we know of was to return the whole family to Moscow for a huge show trial. Nicholas was to be found guilty and executed publicly for the PR value. There was already much clamor from Europe, including a formal request from Germany that the Empress and children not be harmed.  In order to keep his political capital with Germany, and not to appear "too brutal" to the world public, he was going to send the Empress and children to exile, probably in Germany.

Offline Lisa

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Re: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2004, 10:37:18 AM »
I thought that Lenin was not for to bring Nicholas at trial at the court, unlike Trotsky...

Lenine didn't say "The Tsar must died" (it's not against the Romanovs in particularly, but the Imperial Family, cf the story with Nicholas Michailovitch ("Revolution does not need historians")...) ??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Lisa »

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Re: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2004, 10:53:48 AM »
Goloshchyokin went to see Sverdlov in Moscow about allowing the Ural Soviet to execute the IF in early July 1918. Sverdlov consulted Lenin about what to do with the IF. Lenin spoke of bringing the tsar's family to Moscow for an open trial of Nicholas and Alexandra. "It must be an All-Russian trial only! With publications in the press.  It is necessary to count what human and material losses to the country were caused by the autocrat during his reign.  How many revolutionaries were hung? How many people died in penal servitude and in a war nobody needed? He must answer for that, facing all the people!...It is the incomprehensible Russian credulity [of the Russian peasants] that must be discredited at the open trial of Nicholas the Bloody..." as reported being said by Lenin by Goloshchyokin.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2004, 12:30:15 PM »
Since the fate of the Imperial Couple and the heir [ his political role being more relevant than that of of a sick boy] was a given, trial or not, they were doomed. And, since seperation from their parents was precluded either by will or circumstance, just what wre the  Ural Soviets to do with them ?
These guys were cold blooded, drunken murderers. To such people, their victims count for little, age, sex, number, all irrelevent to their own ends.  They were all concerned with their own survival, escape and crime avoidence. I am sure they gave little thought to caring for a bunch of hysterical young women/girls and what was another bullet, bayonet or body ? They didn't even have pity on a family pet, what thought would the humans merit.
I think it is clear, the lot of the family was inevitable once they left Tobolsk.
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2004, 12:52:36 PM »
I meant to add- if not  some time before...
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Offline Merrique

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Re: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2004, 05:21:22 PM »
Quote
Since the fate of the Imperial Couple and the heir [ his political role being more relevant than that of of a sick boy] was a given, trial or not, they were doomed. And, since seperation from their parents was precluded either by will or circumstance, just what wre the  Ural Soviets to do with them ?
These guys were cold blooded, drunken murderers. To such people, their victims count for little, age, sex, number, all irrelevent to their own ends.  They were all concerned with their own survival, escape and crime avoidence. I am sure they gave little thought to caring for a bunch of hysterical young women/girls and what was another bullet, bayonet or body ? They didn't even have pity on a family pet, what thought would the humans merit.
I think it is clear, the lot of the family was inevitable once they left Tobolsk.



I have to agree with Robert.I believe once the family left Tobolsk and arrived in Ekaterinburg their fate was sealed.It kind of makes me wonder if Lenin had tried to bring the IF to Moscow for a public trial would he have been able to.It seemed like when the Ural Soviets got ahold of the IF they were unwilling to let them go for any reason so they could dwell out the people's justice.
Maybe I'm wrong but this is just my take on it.
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Offline Janet_W.

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Re: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2004, 06:02:45 PM »
My own thoughts are that the combination of Kerensky and Toblosk preserved their lives, but once Kerensky was ousted it was pretty much over.

If (here I go with the ifs) a way had been found for the children to leave, and they and their parents had consented to it, there might still have been time during the first two or three months of Bolshevik rule/misrule for the children--or, at least, OTMA--to have evacuated to England. But I seriously doubt the girls would have said yes to this. Remember that it was with great anguish, in 1918, that Nicholas and Alexandra separated from their children, with just Marie in tow. I think that to have earlier said goodbye to OTMA--even if they had been accompanied by some of their retinue--would have been unexceptable to both Nicholas and Alexandra. After all, four young women, still largely innocent of the ways of the world, separated from their family, on a long journey across a politically turbulant land? What parent would agree to THAT?!  And the family did think of themselves as "We Seven." They were a unit. It might have crossed the minds of some of the children--Olga, for example--that they might be asked to separate from their parents at some point. But I don't think any of the children would, ultimately, have accepted that invitation, should it have been offered. Despite whatever natural desires they had for independence, I believe the need to remain close to their parents would have trumped other feelings.

Offline ashanti01

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Re: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2004, 08:13:57 PM »
Okay let me throw this out...

If Nicholas was informed that thier lives we in danger and his children could be spared, is it possible they would have preferred to have suffered the same fate as a unit or would he have allowed the children to be taken to relatives??

I almost want to say that the family would have accepted the fate together...at least from what I read it seems to pull more toward that direction.

So in a sense its like they never really had a chance

Offline Olga

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Re: Did OTMAA ever have a chance?
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2004, 09:17:06 PM »
Quote
Since the fate of the Imperial Couple and the heir [ his political role being more relevant than that of of a sick boy] was a given, trial or not, they were doomed.


That's was what I was trying to say.  :)