Author Topic: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC  (Read 123786 times)

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Offline jackie3

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2004, 02:39:04 PM »
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i'm sorry but the murder of the IF was not one of the "most horrible crimes of the 20th century."

it was a SERIOUSLY[/i] evil/troubled century.

this is the century of:

the Armenian genocide
WWI
the russian civil war
stalin's wars against his people  (the kulaks/ the ukranaina famines/ the purges/ the sentencing of returning all soviet POWs to siberia)
WWII (assorted atrocities on all sides)
the holocaust
the congo wars
the biafran genocide
the bangaldeshi famines
the ethiopian famines
bosnia

and i'm sure i've missed many other examples of truly evil and criminal behavior.  the killing of one small family does not compare and does not warrant such a superlative.


I think any murder is a "horrible crime" and the murder of an entire family certainly counts as one. It was none other than Stalin who said that "one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" or some such and equating great tragedy with numbers is a misnomer. Murders happen all the time and each victim has a history, a name, a face, even if they are lost to history. For me the death of the IF was notable in that (IMO) it was a mark that signaled the end of the Victorian era of chilvalry and gentlemanly war and stands as a symbol of the century of massive blood-letting that followed. As Trotsky remarked in his memoirs (repeated by Radzinsky in "The Last Tsar") upon hearing the of the murders of the IF, once he heard about it he knew why it had happened: now there was no going back from the "Revolution" and the Red Terror that followed, the Iron Curtain, The fascist Nazism that was the rightist twin-face of the Communists (2 sides of the same coin) and all the atrocities that have been mentioned. The cold-blooded and brutal murder of the IF stands out if only as a harbinger of things to come.

Offline azrael7171918

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2004, 02:43:55 PM »
Okay the scenerio was :

You are being held captive together with your family.

YOu are woken up at 1AM told to get everyone ready and go downstairs. You are going to have your picture taken.

You are led to a room in the basement no furniture you ask for chairs the doors are closed behind you.

What is going thru your heads.

Not at the moment the doors are reopened.

Preceding that.

Now the previous reason that had always been given made sense to throw off your prisoners you tell them you are moving them.

But the story has now changed surely the reaction of the captives is going to be different than if they are told they are leaving.

In Rasputin the reason for coming to the basement was to have their pictures taken and once the doors were closed you did see panic and fear. Did they suspect?

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2004, 03:12:01 PM »
I do not really think this sort of ghoulish speculation is of any genuine historical value. Please, they were simply people...To ask these questions is as morbid to discuss what those on the airplanes crashing into the WTC felt, or how Sharon Tate et al felt that night. I won't lock the thread, but genuinely ask EVERYONE to think deeply about this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2004, 03:16:30 PM »
Dear Forum Admin

I entirely agree.   I regret having left a posting here.

tsaria

Offline Janet_W.

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2004, 03:18:26 PM »
From the standpoint of a mere mortal:

The family and attendants were aware of battles going on nearby. All but Dr. Botkin had been asleep, though for some it must have been a fitful sleep. They were asked to dress quickly; one more order to follow, though not exactly typical. But since they were lodged on a second story, it made sense to take them out of range.

I doubt any of them were thinking of Rasputin's demise. They were thinking instead of getting dressed, of using the toilet or a chamber pot, of making sure they took with them their most valuable items--i.e., the jewels sewn into the clothing and pillows--and of obeying instructions. They realized their lives were in the hands of these people and they did not want to incite any problems. They went down the steps, into the room, waited--with the groggy nervousness that comes from being awakened suddenly, then expected to function, then expected to wait--and when the men came in with their guns, both understanding and denial undoubtedly flashed in the ensuing seconds of the stated "verdict," just as it does when we know we're about to be involved in a car accident or some other threatening situation. For some time Alexandra had crossed herself almost on reflex; she did so at this time. So, according to some reports, did Olga. Then complete realization--as the first gun was raised--screams, and the ensuing massacre.

For us to really know how it must have been, we would need to have the knowledge of the angels; let us hope that we never have cause to know the full experience while we are still here on earth.

Offline Janet_W.

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2004, 03:20:11 PM »
I apologize. I sent my last post off before I knew of the other two posts.

I agree with FA; I simply meant to try to satisfy morbid curiosities, and then leave the thread alone after that.

Offline Annie

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2004, 04:05:10 PM »
This thread got me in a really morbid mood and I was imagining how much worse it must have been for Ella and the others who must have suffered a horrible end for a much longer time :'(

Offline RichC

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2004, 05:24:38 PM »
I actually like some of the posts on this thread.  It's worthwhile to discuss the meaning of the execution as bookworm and jackie3 were doing.  But I realize that wasn't the original point of the thread.  As for it being one of the most horrible crimes of the 20th century, I still think Richard Pipes summed it up best:

"The manner in which the massacre was prepared and carried out, at first denied and then justified, has something uniquely odious about it, something that radically distinguishes it from previous acts of regicide and brands it as a prelude to twentieth-century mass murder."


Offline Sarai

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2004, 06:34:15 PM »
I agree that this is a very morbid and depressing topic, and seemingly disrespectful to some, but I also think it is quite natural of human beings to be curious about death and sometimes want to know all the details, including how the family may have felt and reacted at the moment of their deaths.

It is similar to reading a blow-by-blow account of their executions, as is so effectively done in Fate of the Romanovs. That is the most explicit and detailed description of the family's death I have ever read, but I don't condemn the authors for it. Instead, I am grateful to them for having researched this and put it in their book nonetheless, as it was a very real part of this whole tragic story. If anything, as repulsive as these deaths were, it makes one empathize even more with those poor people. However, I understand that this thread at times deals with pure speculation and the book deals with actual facts.

I think the FA is right not to lock this thread. If people find it too disturbing to read, then it must be left up to them to avoid it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Sarai_Porretta »

Offline Merrique

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2004, 06:37:29 PM »
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I agree that this is a very morbid and depressing topic, and seemingly disrespectful to some, but I also think it is quite natural of human beings to be curious about death and sometimes want to know all the details, including how the family may have felt and reacted at the moment of their deaths.

It is similar to reading a blow-by-blow account of their executions, as is so effectively done in Fate of the Romanovs. That is the most explicit and detailed description of the family's death I have ever read, but I don't condemn the authors for it. Instead, I am grateful to them for having researched this and put it in their book nonetheless, as it was a very real part of this whole tragic story. If anything, as repulsive as these deaths were, it makes one empathize even more with those poor people. However, I understand that this thread at times deals with pure speculation and the book deals with actual facts.

I think the FA is right not to lock this thread. If people find it too disturbing to read, then it must be left up to them to avoid it.


Very well said Sarai.
Don't knock on Death's door....ring the doorbell and run.He hates that.:D

Offline bookworm857158367

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2004, 09:00:32 PM »
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Hello
   Well--- is a doctor EVIL when she administers the lethal injection to a criminal sentences to death?
    Admittedly many people here would support the Romanovs, but the soldiers involved in the execution most likely saw this as their revolutionary duty...
    Was the execution Evil? Not to everyone...Was the Tzarist state Evil? Not to everyone....

just something to consider
rskkiya



Killing a helpless child is always evil, regardless of whether he is royalty or not. They may not have been evil people, but the act was horrifiically evil. I believe the death penalty is always wrong. Yes, I have a problem with executioners in general.

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2004, 09:36:33 AM »
This topic has wandered into some very unsavory and rather ghoulish territory -- and I think that I had better make my farewells before things get any more questionable.

peace to you all
rskkiya

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2004, 10:37:02 AM »
As they went down the stairs they had to step over a big stuffed mother bear and her cub - they all crossed themselves as they stepped over and went down.

It the rooms upstairs the family would have all received Nicholas's blessing before they left the room.  I am sure there would have been prayers as well.

Having been through so much they had all learned to compartmentalise their days, focusing on each other and the 'routine' in order to avoid dwelling on the circumstances they were in.  In the last month of their captivity this must have been harder to maintain with guns, threats, bombs and the like going on around them.

I think Nicholas and Alexandra knew they were 'finished' - and that Aleksey would not survive one way or another, but they thought the others might survive.  Still, they had heard so many *horrible* stories about the murder of their friends and officers that they could have had no illusions about the possibilities.

The situation was so critical and the hatred of their guards so obvious that it would not have been necessary for there to have been discussions among the family about 'what might happen' for everyone to have known the possibilies.  However, I am sure Botkin and Nicholas had discussions since Botkin knew what was in store for them from the guards and he would have considered it his duty to discuss this with Nicholas.

Sunny

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2004, 07:03:48 PM »
Blessings Bob...

Sunny

Offline moonlight_tsarina

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2005, 10:39:32 PM »
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It has been declared "one" of the most horrible crimes, but you are right its not the most horrible. Sad to say there have been more horrible crimes around the world that never quite make the papers.



well, it is surely one of the mmost horrible crimes ever in MY VIEW.

I recall reading them almost being excited, thinking that being saved was soon....that the hussars were coming to the town to save them...sad..so horrible...imagine the girls seeing their dead mama and papa..knowing they were all alone! and i think it was said they tried to escape or open the locked storage room... :'( :'( :'( :'(
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