Author Topic: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC  (Read 163458 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline victoriakin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • An Old Photo of My Grandpa, Very Dear.
    • View Profile
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #255 on: December 29, 2009, 11:21:22 AM »
Does anyone know if Russia's current president is any relation to the Medvedev that was one of Nicholas II's executioners?

It's my general belief that those who had historical causes for political gains kept those gains in the families and profited from them; therefore I would more assume there to be a relation than not.
World Travel Bookings Available from
http://portspecials.com

Offline victoriakin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • An Old Photo of My Grandpa, Very Dear.
    • View Profile
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #256 on: December 29, 2009, 11:29:42 AM »
Does anyone know if Russia's current president is any relation to the Medvedev that was one of Nicholas II's executioners?
                                                                    ^
Why is it that you can give me so much evidence and information that the Romanovs were killed that night, yet it seems more like a clip from movie or a paragraph from a book that isn't true?  Somehow, I feel that that isn't what happened.  Maybe I should have listened to that ignorant teacher last year.   Maybe I need to stop day-dreaming and see the truth.  but either ways, I still feel like it couldn't have happened.  Cally me crazy, but that's just how I feel. 

If I'm wrong and all of you guys have been right all  along (which is most likely the case), it's so saddening.  Underneath all of the grandeur, the jewels, and the power, they were human.  They ate, they slept, they bled, they cried, they laughed, and they died.  Why must history be so cruel?  Why is it the innocent and the perfect couple must die?  When shall we know the answers to these question?  Nevermore.

(P.S.  If you like my poetry and writing, tell me)

One must be aware, as you seem to be, that the reasons for the news outweighted the accuracy for the news. Anyone I ever speak with conversationally offline reminds me that the winners are the writers of the history. I've studied journalism in school and I've seen the journalists who think they are reporting news, and I see the questions that arise in our daily lives even now, where we can't reconcile what is presented as facts, with the facts as we may logically understand them. There are many issues that evade truth. If this is one of them, surely there are ways to mete out the truth but only if and when those who care about the truth are open to receive it. It's not religion, even as the Romanovs are Saints. It is politics, and political powers, and the foibles of the caretakers of what serves as history.
World Travel Bookings Available from
http://portspecials.com

Offline Sarushka

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • May I interest you in a grain of salt?
    • View Profile
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #257 on: December 29, 2009, 11:46:57 AM »
Does anyone know if Russia's current president is any relation to the Medvedev that was one of Nicholas II's executioners?

It's my general belief that those who had historical causes for political gains kept those gains in the families and profited from them; therefore I would more assume there to be a relation than not.

I disagree. I believe Medvedev is a fairly common name in Russia.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline victoriakin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • An Old Photo of My Grandpa, Very Dear.
    • View Profile
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #258 on: December 29, 2009, 12:02:07 PM »
Does anyone know if Russia's current president is any relation to the Medvedev that was one of Nicholas II's executioners?

It's my general belief that those who had historical causes for political gains kept those gains in the families and profited from them; therefore I would more assume there to be a relation than not.

I disagree. I believe Medvedev is a fairly common name in Russia.

It may be a common name, but it is far from a common distinction in a far from common privileged center of society. Do you truly believe that commonality wins over heritage where such favors are concerned in that bureacracy?
World Travel Bookings Available from
http://portspecials.com

Offline jehan

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 260
    • View Profile
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #259 on: December 29, 2009, 10:55:36 PM »
I doubt that there is any relationship.  The executioners were hardly privileged- can you name any other families that might have profited from the executions nearly a hundred years later?  I don't think Medvedev's family has a histoy of privilege- why start now?
 
Medvedev is about number 30 in the most common surnames in Russia.  It literally means "Bear".  Many of the most common Russian surnames that are not patronyms (ie Ivanov, Petrov etc) are animal names- Voronov (Crow), Sokolov (falcon), Volkov (wolf), Lebedev (swan) etc.
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in. 
(leonard Cohen)

Offline victoriakin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • An Old Photo of My Grandpa, Very Dear.
    • View Profile
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #260 on: January 18, 2010, 09:38:39 AM »
I doubt that there is any relationship.  The executioners were hardly privileged- can you name any other families that might have profited from the executions nearly a hundred years later?  I don't think Medvedev's family has a histoy of privilege- why start now?
 
Medvedev is about number 30 in the most common surnames in Russia.  It literally means "Bear".  Many of the most common Russian surnames that are not patronyms (ie Ivanov, Petrov etc) are animal names- Voronov (Crow), Sokolov (falcon), Volkov (wolf), Lebedev (swan) etc.

It isn't about names. If you believe that political structures are not privileged, you don't know much about politics.
World Travel Bookings Available from
http://portspecials.com

Offline Sarushka

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • May I interest you in a grain of salt?
    • View Profile
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #261 on: January 19, 2010, 08:04:04 AM »
Wandering off topic, folks...

If you'd like to discuss this further, I'll split the relevant posts into a new thread. Just let me know. Otherwise, please let's return to the original subject.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline LisaDavidson

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
    • View Profile
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #262 on: January 19, 2010, 03:44:55 PM »
Thank you, Margarita - you are correct. On topic or thread will be locked.

Offline victoriakin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • An Old Photo of My Grandpa, Very Dear.
    • View Profile
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #263 on: January 20, 2010, 12:19:17 AM »
Wandering off topic, folks...

If you'd like to discuss this further, I'll split the relevant posts into a new thread. Just let me know. Otherwise, please let's return to the original subject.

I don't think any further discussion is needed. I don't think the question I replied to was on topic as it was. Best to let it be.
World Travel Bookings Available from
http://portspecials.com

RomanovMartyrs

  • Guest
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #264 on: February 03, 2010, 05:40:01 AM »
I have a question.

In most accounts you hear that there were two chairs brought into the room: One for Alexei and one for the Tsaritsa. I just read the final chapter of Nicholas & Alexandra (by Massie) where it's stated there were three chairs, and that the Tsar sat also.

What's true? Two chairs, or three?

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #265 on: February 03, 2010, 05:51:17 AM »
Two chairs were brought in. Nikolai II stood.

Margarita


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

RomanovMartyrs

  • Guest
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #266 on: February 03, 2010, 06:29:46 AM »
Thanks! :)

I've been reading many of the accounts and it's very frustrating that many of them differ so. In any case, one almost has to pick and choose what and who to believe.

Even Yurovsky contradicts himself between his two accounts! Is there any one account by any witness that is thought to be the most reliable? If so, can someone post it in it's entirety? Or, can anyone summarize the event in detail for me here, in a way that combines many accounts to become the most accurate/accepted one?

Much appreciation to anyone who does!

ElizavetaRose

  • Guest
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #267 on: February 18, 2010, 10:48:32 PM »


Quote
It seems that a few of them were awared about the coming events as Olga, Alexei, Doctor Botkine and AF.. Alexandra called in her diary of "the angel" (the death angel in fact) .. she writted "the angel is coming up"..

 Nicholas and his other daughters seems to have been more optimistics..

That seems to be more of their nature. Nicholas IMO probably did not want to think of what COULD happen,but instead be at peace with himself. GD Tatiana I'm sure (seeing that she was called "The Governess") tried to make the best of everything for her family.GD Maria was naturally caring and sweet,and some have said very brave,so she probably had a hand in keeping people hopeful (or at least tried) .GD Anastasia was just a prankster and had always been able to make people laugh,so I imagine she gave everyone a reason to laugh every once in a while. 

Offline JStorey

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 124
  • looking for lieutenant kije
    • View Profile
    • online portfolio
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #268 on: February 19, 2010, 01:26:04 AM »
I've been reading many of the accounts and it's very frustrating that many of them differ so. In any case, one almost has to pick and choose what and who to believe.

Even Yurovsky contradicts himself between his two accounts! Is there any one account by any witness that is thought to be the most reliable? If so, can someone post it in it's entirety? Or, can anyone summarize the event in detail for me here, in a way that combines many accounts to become the most accurate/accepted one?

The most thorough account is provided in King and Wilson's Fate of the Romanovs.  What you must do (if you want to gain as comprehensive an understanding of the event as one can from the testimony) is read the source material of each reference, then draw your own conclusions.  The advantage of the source material is that it is relatively thin - there really isn't much of it - and it is also relatively (in terms of history) recent.

Unfortunately the account by King and Wilson simply takes all the varying testimony, throws it in a blender, and spits out what I consider a wildly embellished fable. 

To illustrate what I mean, King and Wilson infer that after hearing the order Nicholas II said "Lord, oh my God!  Oh, my God, what is this?  Oh, my God, no!"  Then turned back to Yurovsky and said, "I can't understand you.  Read it again, please."  Yurovsky somehow finds the time to read it again, to which Nicholas responds, "What? What?"  and Yurovsky says, "This!" and starts shooting. 

That seems utterly absurd to me - a very drawn out dramatization of what was surely less orchestrated.  And of course when we look at the original material, each quote comes from a different source; therefore we can conclude that these are different accounts of what was likely the same pithy utterance.   Nicholas probably had a moment to say "What?  What?" (if that) and the shooting started.  It does not seem plausible to me that Yurovsky read the order twice, nor that Nicholas launched into soliloquy.  In any case, King and Wilson take each account and add it like sliding a bead of an abacus until they have a rather hefty sum suitable for both drama and their [dubious] theories.

In fairness, however, I do recommend the King and Wilson account because they very meticulously list each source and allow the curious independent sleuth to discover the history on their own.  It is also, as I mentioned, the most thorough and comprehensive (if you can ignore the embellishment to the point of travesty) account.

In some respects it really doesn't matter.  They were brutally murdered.  Period. 

But for those of us who are fascinated with this family and those that remained loyal to them to the very end, precisely how the events unfolded really does matter.  My suggestion is to read the source material and use common sense; Occam's razor most certainly applies here.  Do not allow yourself to become enthralled by bizarre scenarios, but remain rigorous in your analysis of the details which, more often than not, hold the most salient clues.

Good luck!

Offline blessOTMA

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2524
  • Tell me the truth, monsieur
    • View Profile
    • Stay at Home Artist
Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #269 on: February 19, 2010, 01:30:45 AM »
Excellent advice JStorey...and well said

"Give my love to all who remember me."

  Olga Nikolaevna