Author Topic: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC  (Read 163045 times)

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Offline Павэл

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #300 on: June 11, 2010, 08:28:22 PM »
Some day i might finish this!

Bayonets and Rifle Butts

Quote
If you look at the list of guns handed out by Yurovsky to the other executioners,  there are no rifles involved.

I've only been back at this 2 months, so material is old. I've only just finished K&W and am having to do alot of catch-up. Whether sources are reliable is up to questioning, but Massie, 1995, p6:

"Rather than reload, the executioners took rifles from the next room..."

If they were not originally planned for use, they would not be on the issue list. On top of that Yurovsky changes pieces of his story. Like to know Massie's Source though.

Why issue revolvers/pistols but not rifles? (In this I mean take notes of who got what.) Sidearm manufacture has always been far lower than Rifles. The UK during WWII for example produced 18 times more rifles and SMGs than sidarms. Sidearms are harder to build (need to fit it all in 1 small item without losing quality) and are also seen as 'status symbols'. If rifles are 'ten a penny' then why bother noting who has what because it is possible everyone had one anyway!

So the next question becomes - what access to rifles did they have? Where are they stored (even if only for the night.) Did the men enter the room where they had been given their pistols with rifles already?

More coming then I'm to bed!
"[st]Winston[/st] Paul returned to his room and smoked his Victory cigarettes ......"

Offline Павэл

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #301 on: June 11, 2010, 09:22:06 PM »
I'm half-inclined to distrust some of this. In A Lifelong Passion p672, Yurovsky lists that Alexandra, Demidova, The Daughters and Alexei survived, and yet in his memoir at kingandwilson.com/FOTRresources/yurovsky1922.htm it is OTMAA plus Botkin. In the Original Protocol, it is Alexis, 3 sisters, the maid and botkin.

Is this bad memory? Or looking at different aspects of the same event in different ways? The Original Protocol reads as if it were in two distict phases - original salvos and then finishing off. Is there really such a distinct boundary? So at what point in a 'continuum' of succesive overlapping events is this break occurring? If you were to ask me 'name something memorable from your teenage years' I would talk about the Romanoffs but tell a true, but different story from if I was asked 'How did you come to encounter the Romanoffs?' The same subject but 2 very different ways of expressing it. in my own job the phraseology used towerds a collegue is different from that used to an undergraduate student and different yet again for visiting sixth formers on open days when trying to choose what degree to do and where. And yet the subject could be the same. The original protocol was writting for internal party consumption (an official report) and the memoirs are a personalised note.

K&W argue in their book (in this case the then missing 2 bodies) that Yurovsky is untrustworthy. Also, gilliard argues regarding the clean-up of the I.H. that the intent was to decieve. All of these men have at some point in the saga conspired to decieve different groups in different ways -m from conning the family into the basementto taking part in a giant cover-up. Are they still doing so long after their civil war has been won? Even - have they decieved enough so that they too can't tell what is real and what isn't? In Voltaire's words, "History is merely accepted fiction." may be relevant.

Enough! Bedtime.

Во всяком случае, Хорошие ночные дети. Не Имейте кошмары!

Пав
"[st]Winston[/st] Paul returned to his room and smoked his Victory cigarettes ......"

Offline rosieposie

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #302 on: June 12, 2010, 05:26:02 AM »
Hey Paul I am very impressed with your research and it has made me think of the scene differently.  :-)
Beautiful faithful Nargony.
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Offline Romafan96

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #303 on: August 19, 2012, 12:59:54 PM »
Does anybody know what the executioners used to dismember the corpses in the forest? This is quite a morbid question, I know but seeing as they had so little resources I wonder how they managed to completely chop up two bodies.

Offline Romafan96

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #304 on: August 20, 2012, 10:34:17 AM »
It's safe to say that Nicholas, Alexandra, Trupp and Kharitonov were the first to die. In Helen Rappaport's book "Yekaterinburg" it says that Trupp was shot in the legs whilst Kharitonov fell after his body was "riddled" with bullets. Botkin, Maria and Alexei were injured in the first volley of gunfire. The gunmen then left the room to allow the smoke which had gathered to clear, but some ended up being sick. Then they could hear moans coming from the basement floor, an indication that their work was not yet over. Yurovsky then turned on the injured Botkin who was lying on the floor and shot him in the side of the head as he turned his face away in terror.
 Meanwhile, GD Olga and Tatiana were cowering in the corner screaming for their mom. Tatiana was killed by Yurovsky after he shot her in the back of the head as she tried to get up and run, her skull basically exploding a shower of blood and brains over a hysterical Olga. Olga was killed seconds later by Ermakov as she attempted to stand. He kicked her back down and shot her through the jaw.The bullet ripped through straight to her brain. Scientists were able to determine the causes of death for Olga and Tatiana after their skulls were examined and showed the bullet holes. Alexei was killed with two shots to the head, just above his ear by Yurovsky after Nikulin's shots failed to finish him. His heamophilia proved to be a near blessing to him in the end. Anna Demidova, just like Maria, fainted but regained consciousness and fought with her attackers, going as far as to grab the bayonet with her bare hands, cutting her hands in the process. She was eventually silenced, and according to Robert Massie's book "The Last Chapter" was stabbed up to 30 times. It is not really known how Maria and Anastasia died. The remains found in 2007 are far too damaged to give any such insight, and the executioners don't name the Grand Duchesses individually when they speak of the murders. Two of the girls, probably Maria and Anastasia since Olga and Tatiana's wounds were fatal, survived the execution itself, but were later finished off by bayonets and rifle butts.

One of the guards reported that after the killings when they were checking the corpses for jewellery, he turned over the bodies of one of the Grand Duchesses. It made a gurgling sound and blood gushed from her mouth and was a sight which would 'shock the toughest of stomachs'. The murder room was described as "butchery" by one of the guards as the bodies were incredibly bloody, and some wounds severed right down to the bone. Tissue was all over the clothing. Rappaport also comments that the room was full of the smell of human waste, which was emitted from the victims in moments of extreme trauma. I read in a book about forensics that head wounds bleed profusely and with at least 5 out of the 11 executed taking a shot to the head the bodies must have been swimming in blood. Given the extent of the injuries sustained in the murder room, and the later ones caused by the grenades in the mine shaft, and the natural process of decomposition (which would have occurred faster due to the warm climate at that time) it's really no wonder that the executioners had absolutely no idea of who they burned at the Pig's Meadow.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 10:37:50 AM by Romafan96 »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #305 on: August 20, 2012, 11:02:09 AM »
This has all been gone over before. What is this obsession over the details ? They are DEAD, over with and we do not need to read more details. It has all been said, published and otherwise been made public.
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Offline edubs31

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #306 on: August 20, 2012, 11:29:28 AM »
Well I suppose that's a pretty good summary of the massacre. Helpful for those new to the story that want a quick run down of the tragic events without having to a read a book or sift through the conversation.

I don't mean to speak for everyone of course but I do have to question anyone who spends a lot of time on this and isn't doing it as a researcher, ala King & Wilson. What's the fascination? Reading this again made me a little sick to my stomach and I know the details.
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Offline Romafan96

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #307 on: September 29, 2012, 07:24:20 AM »
I guess people are just curious. But I was recently watching a documentary about the victims of the Holocaust and a very interesting thought was brought up. There are hundreds of pictures in circulation of the Jews just before they entered the gas chambers, but absolutely none show them inside. We all know that their lives ultimately ended in the chambers, but how that came about is really open to speculation. Did they cry? Did they scream? Did they catch on to what was happening? Did they accept their fate as part of God's plan or did they sink to their knees begging the guards for mercy? The man speaking then went onto say that it's a privacy that should be respected. What went on in the gas chambers should remain with those who passed away in them.

You may be wondering what this has to do with the Romanov murders, but it made me think that maybe, just like the man speaking on the Holocaust said, the fact that their deaths remain such a mystery helps to maintain a kind of privacy for the fallen victims. Even Nikulin wasn't too keen to savour the details of the killings and insisted they should remain and depart with those who were present. Everyone knows that the executioners' accounts are flawed and contradictory, and besides them, the only people who know what happened that night are now deceased. No matter how meticulous Romanov authors have researched the murder scene they will probably never get close to what really happened, simply because they weren't there. To us, reading about the murders makes it seem like it's just the ending to tragic book because we know that such a thing will never happen to us in our lifetime. but for the Romanovs, it was their reality. They wouldn't get the chance write books and accounts about the event, or even tell their loved ones and fans they're dead.

Sorry if this sounds a bit long winded, but what I'm trying to say is that perhaps the fact that we still do not know for certain what occurred in the Ipatiev House on 17th July and probably never will, could act as a mark of respect for the victims, and at last give them the privacy they were denied throughout their lifetimes.

Offline edubs31

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #308 on: September 29, 2012, 07:51:56 PM »
Your last sentence pretty well sums it up for me. I'd compare it to intellectual privacy. If there is nothing more to gain from knowing the circumstances and details off their awful fate than I'd just assume the topic be ignored. We don't need to know it anymore than we deserve to know the thoughts in a persons head.

I thank God only for the fact that the eleven victims were seemingly unaware of their fate until moments before the shots began ringing out. They were offered at least some peace of mind until the very end.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline TimM

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #309 on: September 30, 2012, 03:31:45 PM »
Quote
I thank God only for the fact that the eleven victims were seemingly unaware of their fate until moments before the shots began ringing out. They were offered at least some peace of mind until the very

Yeah, none of them suspected what was really going on.
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Offline Lady Macduff

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #310 on: January 22, 2013, 03:29:34 PM »
I've been researching the shooting a lot lately. I guess it's a comfort to know they had each other right to the end of their lives - Olga and Tatiana held on to each other, one of the girls screamed, "Mama!" etc. The flip side of that, which I hadn't really thought about, is they had to watch each other die, which was just as bad, if not worse, than dying themselves. Not so much an issue for Nicholas and Alexandra, but the poor children - imagine seeing the horrors that are happening to your parents and knowing they will shortly be happening to you.
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Offline Romafan96

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #311 on: January 25, 2013, 03:24:32 PM »
@Lady Macduff Yes, that's a horrible thing to happen to anyone. The Romanovs were close to one another in life and maybe them all dying together was the best thing for them, as the survivors would never be able to recover from losing their loved ones in such a horrific manner. The execution is difficult to forget due to the brutality of it. It's hard to imagine what they felt like during those last few moments. Believing they were going to go to a safe place, perhaps still reeling from being woken up at such an ungodly hour. Then Yurovsky comes in with his men and instead sentences them all the death. How their hearts must have dropped through the floor. Then the shots started ringing out and one by one they fall. The most daunting part of the story is the fact that Maria and Anastasia actually left the cellar alive. They must have known, during their brief revival, that the rest of their family was dead. Even though many of them died quickly, the emotional trauma the victims went through makes the story all the more tragic.

Offline edubs31

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #312 on: January 25, 2013, 04:33:16 PM »
It was easily one of the crimes of century, ushering in the Red Terror movement. It's also something of an unfortunate coincidence that the only two people in the room that it could even be argued deserved such a fate (and you won't hear that argument from me) are the one's (Nicholas & Alexandra) that got off comparatively easy.

I'd like to think that it was their destiny to die when they did and how they did, as though to teach humanity a lesson. Their reward is in the afterlife just as their killers, and those who gave the order, have also received their final judgement.

I can't imagine would what a dying Marie and Anastasia must have felt and it honestly sickens me to think about it. People often talk about shock taking over the body in times of severe drama and a feeling almost of being removed from oneself sets in. I do know Alexandra and Olga attempted to cross themselves which speaks to the idea that their thoughts were with the Lord. Obviously fear and pain and other human emotions take over in times of panic regardless of how devout one's soul. But another thing I think about sometimes is that once you die it doesn't really matter how you died. I mean this in both a physical/natural sense and also a spiritual sense...whichever you choose to believe in, or perhaps both.

Also, horrible as it was, I believe they were taken that night for a reason. And while death for some in that room was both physically and emotionally painful they had made the choice, seven family members for certain and probably their loyal retainers turned friends as well, that they'd rather die together than live alone. I'm thankful for the relative peace of mind they were granted literally moments before Yurovsky read the note and the shots began ringing out. It's my belief only but I see God's fingerprints all over the tragic events of this evening. Bless them and their sacrifice!
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline Romafan96

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #313 on: January 25, 2013, 06:22:18 PM »
Edubs, I totally agree. I can see why people would argue that Nicholas and Alexandra deserved what happened to them, but I could never wish such a thing on even the lowest of humanity. Being gunned down right in front of your children is a death no parent would wish to endure. I'd say that Nicholas and Alexandra had the execution coming, but that doesn't mean to say that they deserved it.
I don't know if you believe in God, but I agree, God was definitely present in that execution room, just like he is there for people who go through hard trials. God just needed the family to be brave for Him during those final moments. They would soon find eternal rest with him.

The one thing that irritates me the most about these survivor stories and conspiracy theorists is that these tales are not allowing the family to rest. People believe they are doing history a favour by discrediting the DNA evidence, but when they are unable to come up feasible explanations to the survivors' whereabouts, the Romanovs become ghost figures in history. I'm still praying that the Russian Orthodox Church finally recognise those precious remains as authentic. Perhaps this will finally close the lid on any survivor stories and allow the family's uncertain ending to be put to rest. 

Offline Romafan96

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Re: Execution details: who died how, in what order, etc. GRAPHIC
« Reply #314 on: January 25, 2013, 06:24:53 PM »
I'm really not lookng forward to reading the Fate Of The Romanovs. It's not because it's a bad book, as I've heard many great things about it, it's just the graphic content of the death scene. When I read the account of the murders in Helen Rappaport's 'Yekaterinburg' I had severe trouble sleeping for about a week. I had to move in with my parents at one point.