Author Topic: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc  (Read 10440 times)

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Offline melvin

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Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« on: January 13, 2009, 08:37:55 AM »
Can somebody please tell me who this title would apply to?  thanks

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2009, 09:33:02 AM »
No just another way of saying Grand Duke. Some people believe the correct way of addressing is Grand Prince rather than the more accepted Grand Duke.

Offline Vecchiolarry

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Re: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2009, 05:17:39 PM »
Hi Melvin,

I believe Grand Prince is the correct translation for a son or grandson of the reigning Czar.
Grand Duke is usually used in most English mention(s).  Charlotte Zeepvat does use Grand Prince & Grand Princess in her work and she would know the proper usage, as she's more knowledgeable about these things than I....
As you see, I use 'Czar' when 'Tsar' is probably more proper, but that's how I was brought up.  It's all relative.

Larry

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Re: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2009, 06:01:58 PM »
While Charlotte Z may "consider" Grand Prince the "better" translation, I have a whole slew of Imperial Documents printed in St Petersburg BY the Imperial Press under the direction of Baron Freederickz in English, including a "Handbook of Imperial Russia" published by the Court in 1896 and intended for use of English speaking diplomats in Russia, which all to a one use only the term "Grand Duke".

I quote the Handbook, printed IN ENGLISH in Petersburg in 1896 by the Court, under the direction of Freedericz:
Then follow, firstly the Emperor's sons, daughters and grandchildren (children of his sons); they enjoy the title of Grand Duke, Grand Duchess, and Imperial Highness. Secondly, the great grandchildren of the Emperor in the male line, and all the senior male descendants of the great grandsons, ie: the eldest sons, etc.; they have the title of Prince and Princess of Imperial Blood and Highness. And at length, thirdly all the remaining members of the Imperial House, consequently the younger sons and daughters of the great grandsons etc., are all entitled to the calling of Princes of the Imperial blood, but with the title of Serenissime

 Now you might consider Charlotte Z as more knowledgeable, and she is a great scholar, HOWEVER I personally think the Imperial Court itself ought to be the final say on the matter.

Grand Duke. NOT Grand Prince, was the proper address in English at the Russian Court for a son or grandson of the Emperor.


« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 06:06:34 PM by Forum Admin »

Offline Marc

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Re: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2009, 09:12:06 PM »
As in my language,correct translation would be ''Grand Prince" for ''Великий князь'' and ''Grand Duke" for''Великий герцог''...

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Re: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2009, 10:48:58 PM »
The Imperial Russian Court, in its official publications in English ALWAYS translated ''Великий князь'' as GRAND DUKE.  There can be no better authority than the Ministers of the Russian Imperial Court, who instructed English speaking diplomats and visitors to address anyone with the title ''Великий князь'' as GRAND DUKE.


Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2009, 12:44:37 AM »
During the reign of Alexander III, the title of Grand Duke was conferred as follows:

1. Legitimate sons of the Emperor
2. Grandsons of Emperors, if legitimate and in the male line (IOW, the son of a son of an Emperor)

Because of the growth of the Imperial house, great-grandsons in the male line of Emperors, were Princes of the Blood Imperial.

Offline Marc

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Re: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2009, 08:00:18 AM »
The Imperial Russian Court, in its official publications in English ALWAYS translated ''Великий князь'' as GRAND DUKE.  There can be no better authority than the Ministers of the Russian Imperial Court, who instructed English speaking diplomats and visitors to address anyone with the title ''Великий князь'' as GRAND DUKE.



Of course,known that,but was speaking just about literally translation,meaning word for word...

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2009, 06:06:41 PM »
The Imperial Russian Court, in its official publications in English ALWAYS translated ''Великий князь'' as GRAND DUKE.  There can be no better authority than the Ministers of the Russian Imperial Court, who instructed English speaking diplomats and visitors to address anyone with the title ''Великий князь'' as GRAND DUKE.



Of course,known that,but was speaking just about literally translation,meaning word for word...

Which is not always the best method of translation, especially when the two languages do not share the same alphabet!

Offline Dominic_Albanese

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Re: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2009, 06:39:01 PM »
Rob - you piqued my interest with your reference to the "Statesman's Handbook for Russia" - so I did some look'n around and found a digitized copy of it and thought others might be interested:  It can be found at: http://www.archive.org/stream/statesmanshandbo00russrich

enjoy!

dca

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Re: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2009, 08:07:26 PM »
Dom,

ummm, you sort of missed the one we have on the main APTM site as well:

http://alexanderpalace.org/palace/Statesman.html

 ;)

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2009, 09:20:27 AM »
In actually Grand Duke (like the Austrain Archduke or German Grand Duke (Gross Herzogin)) is better since it defiaciates the member of the Imperial Family from the aristocratic princes. For example Princes Yussopov or Oblensky...

Offline Dominic_Albanese

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Re: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2009, 09:13:20 AM »
Hey Rob - I did find the section on AP Site you reference - but its different than what I posted - the link I posted gives you access to the full book (digitally of course) - you can even download it.  It's really pretty cool.

dca

Offline Michael HR

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Re: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2009, 11:25:58 AM »
Fantastic book is all I can say

Rob - you piqued my interest with your reference to the "Statesman's Handbook for Russia" - so I did some look'n around and found a digitized copy of it and thought others might be interested:  It can be found at: http://www.archive.org/stream/statesmanshandbo00russrich

enjoy!

dca
Remembering the Imperial Corps Des Pages - The Spirit of Imperial Russia


Offline Marie Valerie

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Re: Titles - Grand Dukes, Princes etc
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2012, 10:42:08 AM »
I don't know where to ask this question.


What is the correct title for the other Romanovs?

In german there are two meanings for prince one is "Fürst" the other is "Prinz"

A Grand Duke is in german "Großfürst", female "Großfürstin"

Is a child of a minor Grand Duke a Prinz/Prinzessin or Fürst/Fürstin ?

For examle: The german wikipedia mentions the title of Xenia's and Sandro's daughter is Prinzessin Irina Alexandrovna von Rußland, I thought it would be Fürstin Irina Alexandrovna.
Link: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irina_Alexandrowna_Romanowa

Can somebody help me?
Is there in russian a distinction between Fürst/Prinz or is it like in english one word for both (Prince)?