Author Topic: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II  (Read 202791 times)

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aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #405 on: April 25, 2009, 04:12:25 PM »
Interesting observations, Robert!  But though there are different "takes" on the Imperial Russian Crown, I maintain that this IS a depiction of it, though not in the more "upright-elongated" style.  It certainly shows the diamond "sprays," the pearl edging of the "mitre" divisions and the correct finial that you and I have both observed in person.  As for the Cyrillic "H" being sideways, neither would a Latin "H" (fitting your conjecture for "Hesse") be properly sideways! I believe it to be artistic liicense of the design. Also, I'm not certain that a "Grand Ducal" crown would have a "closed" design. I think that if your check the Hesse arms, you will find that it carries an "open" topped crown/coronet of the so-called heraldric "strawberry leaves " (similiar to the British "ducal" one), since a closed crown would usually indicate a larger sovereign entity. There's a good display of international, etc. crowns on Wikipedia under "Crown (Heraldry)", including a twin of the illustration of the Russian Imperial Crown in this thread.   But......I have just consulted another source and have the identification now.  Please see my next post.   Regards,  AP
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 04:41:09 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Alixz

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #406 on: April 25, 2009, 04:22:55 PM »
My source called it

Monogram bookplate of Emperor of Nicholas II.

My source is the New York Public Library.


aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #407 on: April 25, 2009, 04:31:51 PM »
Attention for those interested in the crowned monogram depicted in  "Alixz"'s post, number  457  .  The EXACT crowned monogram (including the "side-ways"  "H" ) in gold printing is shown in Illustration # 445, page 270, in the exhibition catalogue, " Nicholas and Alexandra," Wilmington, Delaware exhibition of 1999.  The monogram tops a handwritten "Letter from Tsarevich Nikolai Alexandrovich to Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich, 25 September 1891, Fredensborg, Denmark."  It is kept in GARF 645. There are numerous other examples of this monogram in different colors, such as illustrations 448, "Letter from Tsarevich Nikolai Alexanderovich to Princess Alix of Hesse (Dec. 17, 1893, written at "Gatchina, near St. Petersburg "), also # 451, 457, etc., etc.     THUS, I DO agree with "Alixz" that it is indeed a monogram of the Emperor Nicholas II, undoubtedly used most often/exclusively as Tsarevich.      Best regards,    AP
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 04:47:10 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Alixz

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #408 on: April 25, 2009, 04:55:50 PM »
Then perhaps it is as sideways H for Nicholas and a upside down A for Aleksandrovich and an up right A for his father Alexander III showing that he was still Tsarevich.


Offline nena

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #409 on: April 25, 2009, 05:05:23 PM »
I can see 'M' letter too - Marie (Feodorovna) maybe? Am I correct? As a symbol of MF, AIII and NII.
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #410 on: April 25, 2009, 05:25:11 PM »
You are probably the closest to the truth, Nena.   As you mentioned it, I can see it.
 And AP, sure, a lot of artistic license was taken. My thought were just to offere a different, off-the-wall perspective.  I did, however, go through  the Hesse Collection catalogue [Portland] and found some examples of that crown  predating Alexandra. Remember, she was not the first Hesse princess to marry into the Romanov clan. Maybe they picked it up, heraldry-wise along the way? The real answer is in the book itself. What is it, title, subject, date.
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #411 on: April 25, 2009, 05:30:45 PM »
And, the sideways H could be a stylised Cyrllic F.  could it not?
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Offline nena

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #412 on: April 25, 2009, 05:39:10 PM »
No, I think it can't be Cyrillic 'F'. Also, if I may notice all ways of looking are symmetrical. Don't you think? Only maybe middle crest make allusion for Cyrillic 'F'.
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aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #413 on: April 25, 2009, 05:40:58 PM »
Hello, again, Robert !  I'm not certain that I understand the latter reference to a book in your post # 467.  If you are referring to the very large and hefty exhibition catalogue (from which I quoted), it's:  "Nicholas and Alexandra, The Last Imperial Family of Tsarist Russia,"  Harry N. Abrams, Inc, 100 Fifth Ave., New York, NY 10011, 1998, 406 pages.  As to the "sideways H" being a stylized Cyrillic "F": in my opinion, I think not, and would welcome cited examples of the "F" truly being rendered in such a fashion.   Also, I agree that when a Hessian female of the Hessian lineage entered into marriage, especially with a member of the Imperial family, she would have the right to utilize the Imperial "closed" crown, let's say, over an initial (thinking of flatware as the first example that comes to mind).  My reference to the Hessian arms per se and stand-alone, was that members of that family so entitled, assuredly utilized a "Grand-ducal" crown above the Hessian arms unless marriage/another alliance produced another variation.    Regards, AP
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 06:05:08 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #414 on: April 25, 2009, 06:07:55 PM »
Quite ok AP,  I understand my  thoughts are a bit...well artistic perhaps.  The book. no it is not the N&A catalogue, I have that here as well. This is the Hesse Family collextion at the Portland [ Oregon] Art Museum, itself a hefty tome of 287 pages, hardboud- ISBN 1-883124-20-6.
 Remember as well I am just speculating. Not offering a theory.
 As for the Cyrillic F- I have seen it depicted in many ways. I can't type Cyrillic  but you may see, in the form  how it could be constructed. I admit, it takes imagination. I can write it out,   it does seem pointless.
 
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aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #415 on: April 25, 2009, 06:21:33 PM »
Thanks, Robert, for your information on the book re the Hesse Family.  I have not seen that one, but it's nice to have the reference number. I accept that you are "just speculating" on the construction/components of what has been established now as a monogram of Nicholas II (most likely only as Tsarevich) , thus the thought re the potentially unusual Cyrillic "F" variation , is indeed "pointless."  Always good to speak with you, and best regards,   AP
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 06:27:45 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #416 on: March 07, 2010, 07:15:24 PM »
With all the wonderful resources available here, I am always surprised that there isn't an overview of the monogramms of the members of the whole Imperial Family.

Back to attributes of Nicholas:
Am I right to assume that his official service grade was IV, as Colonel of an (Old) Life-Guards Regiment? And that as Colonel Romanov he would thus officially (and hypothetically) be adressed as Ваше превосходительство, Your Excellency?

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #417 on: March 07, 2010, 07:56:12 PM »
Feodor, firstly, Colonel was the VI rank. IV was the Major General rank.

As to Nicholas II, yes he "formally" was enlisted in several prestigious regiments including the Erivan 13th Grenadier Regiment (near today's Tbilisi), but actually "served" in Preobrazhensky of His Majesty Guards Regiment and finished his serving with the rank Colonel of the Guard. By the way despite his love to Cavalry, Nicholas surprisingly served in Infantry.

Rank Colonel required "Your High Nobleness", not "Your Excellency" (for Major Gen. and Lieutenant Gen.), but I can hardly imagine even this appeal to Nicholas II. That would have be unethical. Only strictly "Your Imperial Highness."
"I think that if Shakespeare lived in our times he would not be able to write. Many of his works are not welcome on stage nowadays: The Merchant of Venice – anti-Semitism, Othello – racism, The Taming of the Shrew – sexism, Romeo and Juliet - hideous heterosexual show..." - Vladimir Bukovsky.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #418 on: March 07, 2010, 08:06:55 PM »
Feodor, firstly, Colonel was the VI rank. IV was the Major General rank.
Not being a military buff, I might be totally out of my depth here and very well wrong, but didn't all Guards officers enjoy higher ranks than other officers? One rank higher in New Guards regiments and two higher in the Old ones? And wasn't colonel the highest rank in the Guards?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 08:11:59 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #419 on: March 07, 2010, 08:22:37 PM »
Yes, in Preobrazhensky and Semeonovsky Regiments formally two classes higher, but I thought you mean Colonel, not the Colonel of the Guard in your post. Anyway, I think you can ask someone more trained in this Table of Ranks.

Dear Feodor, I must say that this "Table of Ranks" make me crazy, even the man who know Russian fluently and feeling himself as a Russian can't understand it. I do not envy you.;)
"I think that if Shakespeare lived in our times he would not be able to write. Many of his works are not welcome on stage nowadays: The Merchant of Venice – anti-Semitism, Othello – racism, The Taming of the Shrew – sexism, Romeo and Juliet - hideous heterosexual show..." - Vladimir Bukovsky.