Author Topic: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II  (Read 202584 times)

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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #420 on: March 08, 2010, 03:39:10 PM »
Dear Feodor, I must say that this "Table of Ranks" make me crazy, even the man who know Russian fluently and feeling himself as a Russian can't understand it. I do not envy you.;)
Yes, it's fascinatingly complex, isn't it. Basically it's a very rigid and logical system, it's all the modifications and alterations during its 200-year existence that can give you a headache.


Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #421 on: April 03, 2010, 08:56:50 PM »
With all the wonderful resources available here, I am always surprised that there isn't an overview of the monogramms of the members of the whole Imperial Family.

Back to attributes of Nicholas:
Am I right to assume that his official service grade was IV, as Colonel of an (Old) Life-Guards Regiment? And that as Colonel Romanov he would thus officially (and hypothetically) be adressed as Ваше превосходительство, Your Excellency?

Feodor, firstly, Colonel was the VI rank. IV was the Major General rank.

As to Nicholas II, yes he "formally" was enlisted in several prestigious regiments including the Erivan 13th Grenadier Regiment (near today's Tbilisi), but actually "served" in Preobrazhensky of His Majesty Guards Regiment and finished his serving with the rank Colonel of the Guard. By the way despite his love to Cavalry, Nicholas surprisingly served in Infantry.

Rank Colonel required "Your High Nobleness", not "Your Excellency" (for Major Gen. and Lieutenant Gen.), but I can hardly imagine even this appeal to Nicholas II. That would have be unethical. Only strictly "Your Imperial Highness."

Feodor, firstly, Colonel was the VI rank. IV was the Major General rank.
Not being a military buff, I might be totally out of my depth here and very well wrong, but didn't all Guards officers enjoy higher ranks than other officers? One rank higher in New Guards regiments and two higher in the Old ones? And wasn't colonel the highest rank in the Guards?

Yes, in Preobrazhensky and Semeonovsky Regiments formally two classes higher, but I thought you mean Colonel, not the Colonel of the Guard in your post. Anyway, I think you can ask someone more trained in this Table of Ranks.

Dear Feodor, I must say that this "Table of Ranks" make me crazy, even the man who know Russian fluently and feeling himself as a Russian can't understand it. I do not envy you.;)

Dear Feodor, I must say that this "Table of Ranks" make me crazy, even the man who know Russian fluently and feeling himself as a Russian can't understand it. I do not envy you.;)
Yes, it's fascinatingly complex, isn't it. Basically it's a very rigid and logical system, it's all the modifications and alterations during its 200-year existence that can give you a headache.


Feodor, maybe it's too late, but I finally found correct information about this difficult case.

If we talk about the last version of the Table of Ranks (from the end of 19th century and till 1918), then Nicholas as a Colonel of the Guard officialy had the 5th rank in the Table of Ranks (not the 6th or even 4th) and de facto had style of adress - "Your High Ancestry" ("Ваше Высокородие"). In the last version of Table of Ranks all the Guard ranks gave an advantage of only one additional rank to other military ranks, not two as an in the original version.

So finally, Nicholas the II was officially Colonel of the Guard, had the 5th rank in the Table of Ranks and could have been possibly adressed (if he was not a Tsar;) as "Your High Ancestry" (or simply "Your Highbornness" in your version).
« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 09:02:22 PM by Nicolá De Valerón »
"I think that if Shakespeare lived in our times he would not be able to write. Many of his works are not welcome on stage nowadays: The Merchant of Venice – anti-Semitism, Othello – racism, The Taming of the Shrew – sexism, Romeo and Juliet - hideous heterosexual show..." - Vladimir Bukovsky.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #422 on: April 04, 2010, 08:32:32 AM »
It's never too late, Nicolá, thank you very much for that correction!

Offline Tsarya

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #423 on: October 09, 2010, 07:54:05 AM »
Do you think this recording of Nicholas' voice is genuine?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OR2KnRPgKQ

The title says "Historical speech of the Russian Tsar in Paris" (1902)

I just wonder if some of you have ever heard of it, because what's said inside seems to prove his authenticity.
The first one speaking would be Nicholas (he talks about the french army) and at the end we hear the french president.
" Fuis la terre insensée oů l'on brise la croix,
  Oů jusque dans la mort descend le régicide,
  Oů le meurtre, d'horreurs avide,
  Fouille dans les tombeaux pour y chercher des rois."

  Victor Hugo

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #424 on: October 09, 2010, 08:44:48 AM »
Oh my God, Tsarya, thank you ever so much for finding this clip! I can't see why it should not be genuine, this is not the kind of stuff that is likely to come from a movie.
According to the intro, it's recorded at Krasnoye Selo, at a troop revue, during President Loubet's state visit.
So exciting to hear NII's French! It seems he had a uvular (Parisian) r, while President Loubet (who was of Southern French, rural middle-class origins) had a rolled r!
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 08:52:37 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline Tsarya

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #425 on: October 10, 2010, 01:21:29 PM »
Oh you're welcome =) I'm just lucky I've found it! I wondered if it was real because it's so hard to find this kind of document :) besides it is so awesome to hear him that I thought it couldn't be real ^^
Aaah Nicholas speaking my native tongue ... indeed it's exciting!
You're right about the accents!
" Fuis la terre insensée oů l'on brise la croix,
  Oů jusque dans la mort descend le régicide,
  Oů le meurtre, d'horreurs avide,
  Fouille dans les tombeaux pour y chercher des rois."

  Victor Hugo

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #426 on: January 29, 2011, 03:38:38 PM »
This is the first time I've read this thread.

I am interested in Nicholas II's tattoo.

Can someone provide the full photos from which the photos below are a part.

Thanks.

AGRBear

Nicholas definetly had a tatoo:

Why we could not see it properly? Here my hypothesis
1: here remove it and had just a scar, so it is less visible
2: in the 19 and 20th century, because of the chimical process of the photography, some of the colors are changed in the photo. For exemple, blue looks like white and red and yellow look like black. So IF his tatoo was blue, we could not see it properly.
3: the person who developp the photograph retouched the negative in order to hide Nicholas' tatoo...

Pictures of Nicholas' right arm:
     
Here I pushed  the contrast and you can see clearly  a tatoo!
 

Just to compare, here is the George V's dragon:
http://www.vanishingtattoo.com/tattoo/celeb-georgehtm.htm
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 03:41:05 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline AGRBear

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"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline bestfriendsgirl

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #429 on: February 01, 2011, 07:58:09 PM »
This is an interesting thread ... thanks so much for the links to voice recordings! I think maybe one reason we find the Romanovs so facinating is that they lived at the very beginning of the age of mass media and this record makes it easier to relate to them. As for birth control, well, I'd find it hard to be at ease doing the wild thing in the bedroom at Tsarskoe Selo with all those icons looking down on me!  ;)

Offline Naslednik

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #430 on: February 02, 2011, 08:43:50 PM »
The French voice recording that Tsarya lists above is interesting.  I noticed that the first speaker (after the brief intro) is younger than the second, which is correct, as Nicholas was much younger than Loubet.  Also, if you hear Nicholas say l'Armee Russe, he rolls his R on that one word, Russe, but not on the other Rs he speaks, which are Parisian, as Fyodor Petrovich mentioned.  That makes sense!  You can imagine a Tsar not wanting to say the name of his own country with a foreign accent!

Does everyone agree that it sounds like Nicholas?  I'm going to check with a native French speaker.  I do remember Gilliard mentioning that when they went to Romania, he heard Nicholas speak French in public, and it sounded like St Petersburg French.  Wonder what that was.  Maybe a sort of flowery, proper speech without all the native's colloquial expressions?

I found this cool link with lots of photos:  The French in St. Petersburg.  See the pages on President Loubet's 1902 visit:

http://stpetersburg.berkeley.edu/luke/luke_front.html

Naslednik

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #431 on: February 02, 2011, 10:09:36 PM »
  Response to "Naslednik" and Post # 430:  Yes, the usage of the Russian "rolled r" is distinctive. I have several times travelled the total depth of "Western " or "European Russia," always in the company of friends who were/are native Russians, using private and public LAND (NOT the "impersonal" air) transportation.  Family friends of mine in Yaroslavl Oblast, one of my very favorite areas, have a now-13 year old who "adopted" me as his "uncle" when he was in day-care. Nikita is amazing, in that being native born, he has apparently NEVER rolled his "r"s (unless he's just begun in the past couple of years).  He speaks only Russian. There is no defect of the mouth cavity, etc., per se, to obstruct such. Fascinating to listen to him speak, somewhat akin to hearing the youngsters speak in Barcelona and Malaga, in Spain, where I have also done a goodly bit of traveling.
  By the way, Yaroslaval is a favorite place of mine, being established in AD 1010.  Terrifically historical and deeply interwoven into the fabric of Russian history, unlike the "just over the border "fringe" cities/town where tourists make a "token" visit and announce that they have seen the "real Russia." ( It's like my favorite joke re Colonial Williamsburg Restoration in Virginia, USA.  The question goes:  "Have you ever visited Colonial Williamsburg?"  The answer:  "Oh, yes!  Saw it All, and enjoyed it immensely!  I was there for more than one-half day!" Of course, they were then on their way to their REAL interest:  "Busch Garderns," just down the road!)      Regards,  AP.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 10:35:43 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #432 on: February 03, 2011, 09:33:56 AM »
Re my Post # 431, immediately above:     Now, let's try one of the ending words of that again:  "Busch GARDENS."   In humor,  AP.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 09:39:30 AM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Naslednik

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #433 on: February 05, 2011, 01:13:40 PM »
Dear Alesandr Pavlovich;

I'm glad you also hear that the fellow we think is Nicholas is rolling his R only on "Russe." Otherwise I would think that I am hearing something simply because I want to hear it.  If this is Nicholas, he certainly is poised in public and very well-spoken.  It is hard to imagine him being nervous, although we know from his Journal that he had tremendous fits of nerves before public speeches.  I can relate -- I am a performer, too, and dread the stage.  I do believe that history is written by the Winners, and we see 'loser' Nicholas as a lot less competent than he was.

Now you mentioned Russian children who can't roll the R.  I know two such!  Probably they just don't "hear" the R rolled (the brain doesn't process that sound).  For instance, I can't for the life of me pronounce "Myshkin" in Russian because the "y" doesn't get processed in my brain well enough to know how to move my lips, throat and tongue.  Trying to think in French or English doesn't help me.  I end up saying either "Mishkin" or "Mooshkin" and my Russian friends laugh that I'm calling a Dostoyevsky hero Prince Mouse or Prince Bear.

Had a good laugh over Busch Gardens.  Busch BeerGartens?  Yes, Williamsburg is canned.  What do you think of Gettysburg?  It felt a bit canned, but also deeply moving.

Yaroslavl.  I want to go.  Is it part of the old Ring of cities, the golden ring?  Did you hear any bells?  I have to see/hear some Russian bells played, maybe Rostov some day.
Naslednik

Offline Naslednik

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Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
« Reply #434 on: February 09, 2011, 05:01:48 PM »
About the 1902 voice recording with President Loubet:

Now I'm not so sure it is Nicholas.

I just had my French friend listen to the 1902 recording, and he thinks that it is not Nicholas talking!  I am so disappointed.  He believes that the recording is like this:

(short Narration Voice #1) (Speech in French, Voice#1) (short Narration Voice #1) (Speech in French Voice#2).

In other words, a French person speaks the quick introductions and Loubet does his own speech.  I guessed why this might be -- if the event was in Krasnoe, Nicholas would have spoken in Russian, and Loubet in French.  But if it were re-recorded back in France, the narrating voice might have spoken Nicholas' speech translated from Russian to French.  Perhaps it was prepared for a radio transmission?  I don't know, radio was just being invented, so that's unlikely, unless it was transcribed much later.

On the other hand, if the audience at these speeches was more educated, it is possible Nicholas might have spoken French.

So it all depends upon whether the "Narrator" voice is the same as the first real Speaker....

What do you think?
Naslednik