Author Topic: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.  (Read 68755 times)

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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #90 on: March 07, 2010, 12:40:11 PM »
I like the idea of sashes.  But, as for the coronets,  are they not an integral part of the ceremony ?   The peers put them on only after the monarch is crowned so they do seem superfluous.
 I do not know of any other time they are actually used.
  Who knows what role they, the dukes, may play in the next coronation anyway?  They have been booted out of the Lords, after all.
 And for the robes... well I have a couple, costume, not original,  and they are cumbersome.  Especially if one does not wear them very often. And mine are fake fur!
  I sold my coronet  long ago but still have a tiara, also costume.  I guess these go next....
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #91 on: March 07, 2010, 12:47:03 PM »
The Shaftesburys are Earls rather than Dukes. Apart from the 19th century social reformer (7th Earl, I think), they haven't done anything remarkable. However, in the last five years one has been murdered, and his immediate heir died suddenly and prematurely not long after. As far as I remember, the Earl who was murdered spent most of his time in the south of France, and had inherited his ancestor's desire to rescue the unfortunate. Unfortunately, this made him easy meat for dubious individuals, particularly female, who were only after his money. At a comparatively advanced age, he married one of these females, who murdered him along with her lover.

Ann

Offline RoyalWatcher

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #92 on: March 07, 2010, 02:34:39 PM »
  I sold my coronet  long ago but still have a tiara, also costume.  I guess these go next....

Yes let the coronets go away (they aren't flattering in the least and look very silly), but Robert, the tiaras should never ever go away!  =  )

Offline Margot

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #93 on: March 07, 2010, 03:52:47 PM »
Ann how wonderful about the bayonet! I suppose all sorts of possibilities about how it got there have evolved in your family! If it had been WWII  in date  suppose I suppose one idea is that it could have been thought that it was left there by a Waffen SS Paratrooper who may have been on clandestine operation to assassinate Chruchill a la Jack Hawkins!!!! As it was WWI in date it could have been left there by an equally clandestine agent who rowed across 'La Manche' a la John Buchan or maybe more feasibly it was just something some Tommy brought home as a souvenir of his hellish time in the trenches! History is wonderful isn't it?

Robert, the late Brian Masters' book about Dukes is the most comprehensive book available on the remaining dynasties plus the Portlands and Newcastles! The author was a real character and rather similar to James Less Milnes, in being accused of being 'a snob about snobbery.' But whereas Lees Milnes had a real flair, Masters just never quite managed to  acquire the veneer of insouciance required to be 'quite' comfortable in his role as aristo-worshipper! 'The Dukes' is nonetheless interesting but personally I prefer 'Amazing Grace - the Great days of Dukes by E S Turner which is a gem! I suppose my biggest gripe with the Masters book is that he clearly likes some families more than others and does nothing to hide the fact and he failed to produce anything new that wasn't a rehash of what hadn't been published before, except for a few charmingly gossipy vignettes about some modern Dukes and their families where I think he friendship with Lady Camilla Dempster did provide him with several rather fun 'dining table' tit bits which he did incorporate.

Talking of the Earls of Shaftsbury, Robert with your Hollywood connections you may be interested to learn that another n'er do well member of that family was the the heir of the 9th Earl and father of the unfortunate 10th Earl who was murdered. Anthony, Lord Ashley was a stage door Johnny and was the first husband of the eponymous gold digger of her day, Sylvia Hawkes aka Sylvia Ashley. She went on to marry Douglas Fairbanks Senior, Edward Stanley, 6th Baron Stanley of Alderley, Clark Gable and lastly Prince Dimitri Djordjadze! I wish someone would write a bio of Sylvia as she was fascinating!

And finally back to robes and coronets in modern times and possible future use! Both are based on the Robes of estate worn by the monarch, hereditary peers were referred to as 'trusty cousins' by the monarch which in itself is where there was a finite link between the principals of hereditary and blood which now appears redundant as all peers in the Lords will be for life only, thus the use of such symbolic robes and coronets seems very archaic and IMHO inappropriate. A particular set of robes are worn by new peers and peeresses when they they undertake their 'Introduction' into the House of Lords. Interestingly the use of the term 'trusty cousin' has been changed to 'trusty councillor' in the case of Privy Councillors (Martin the peer being introduced below is a Member) I have noticed that in other introductions 'cousin' has now been dropped completely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vglpk3Nuqlc&feature=related

Here is some footage and then an article about the Oath of Homage during a coronation during which coronets and the special coronation robes are actually worn (I love Larry Olivier's 'hammy' narration! It seems amazing that he pre-recorded this and that it was later added to the footage) :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBQ3E_Yss6E

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2194&dat=19530601&id=u9IwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=oN0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=7218,195922

 

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #94 on: March 07, 2010, 04:32:34 PM »
Thank you both, Ann  & Margot for the  clarifications.  As long as I have been coming to the UK, I really do not know much about the peerage.  Just never interested me. Well, until recently. I knew nothing about Brian Masters until now.  It was my friend who got me interested in the non-royal dukes, with his connection. Roy Strong is a good resource on the coronation. It is far more flexible and adaptable than many people think.  Of course, most people have not seen one in over 60 years! I have only seen it on video. Should be interesting to see what they come up with  for the next one .
I sold my coronet to a theatre group, and lend them the robes anytime they can use them.  But they are so costly to clean, I wish they would just  buy the things! [they do a lot of G&S so they come in handy at times]
The only reason  I thought the Shaftsburys are dukes is because half the West End seems to be named after them. And, yes, Ann, that is exactly what I was thinking of, the murdering wife. And the heir who left his  perfectly happy life as a club manager in NYC only  to come back and die.  I think his younger brother has it now, by total surprise.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Margot

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #95 on: March 07, 2010, 08:40:02 PM »
Shaftesbury Avenue was thus named in commemoration of one of the greatest Philanthropists and advocates of social reform during the Victorian era, Anthony Ashley Cooper, 7th Earl of Shaftesbury! He really was a wonderful man! But the Ashley Cooper family did not in fact own any of the land in the area where present day Shaftesbury Avenue lies. I believe that the reason for the naming of the thoroughfare after the 7th Earl, was more to do with the fact that the project was a major step in slum clearance, which was one of the Earl's most passionate objectives.

Plenty of Dukes have owned great and small swathes of Central London! Other members of the peerage have also owned very lucrative tracts of land there too. The Westministers are of cause the most well known London landlords, and the Dukes of Bedford were landlords of Covent Garden and remain owners of swathes of Bloomsbury. The Graftons had a a more modest plot sandwiched between Bloomsbury (Bedford owned land) Regent's Park (Crown estate) and the Portland Estate. This area eventually became known as Fitzrovia which comes from the Grafton surname of Fitzroy! The Portlands enjoyed the income from Harley Street, Portland Place and a lovely chunk of Marylebone for nearly two centuries before it passed out of the family and into other aristocratic hands where it remains. Even the seemingly perpetually hard up Dukes of St Albans owned a small but eventually extremely valuable plot of piece of London acreage that is now known as Adelphi and which lies between the Strand and the banks of the Thames. Unfortunately for successive Dukes of St Albans, this property later passed out of the family through the female line and into the grateful ownership of the Drummond family of banking fame.

 Amongst the lesser aristocracy, the Marquesses of Salisbury had for a long time a nice little concern near Shaftesbury Avenue, Viscount Portman still owns a lovely slice of acreage nearby which an ancestor acquired during the reign of Henry VIII, the Howard de Walden family now own the Portland estate, and the Earl of Harrington and the Earl Cadogan are still jogging along collecting very respectable rent rolls in Kensington & Chelsea.

Ok there is just another tit bit! I hope it isn't too confusing as it all sounds a bit wordy to me!

 

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #96 on: March 08, 2010, 04:57:26 AM »
My grandmother only lived in that house for a short time, so I've no idea how the bayonet got there (it was a clergy house, in fact - my grandmother lived with her second son, who was a clergyman). Although the bayonet was of WWi pattern, it might well have been in use in WW2, as the Lee-Enfield rifle was standard British issue in both conflicts and there were plenty of WW1 vintage in use much later. But yes, you could make a nice story to explain what it was doing in the coal shed.

The Marquesses of Salisbury at one time owned a considerable swathe of land in what is now Liverpool. The land on which my paternal grandparents' house was built was sold off by them about 1880 (the house was built in 1882 and this was in the deeds). The Earls of Shrewsbury owned a lot of land on the other side of the Mersey. The land occupied by my parents' house belonged to them and various local roads have 'Shrewsbury' names.

Ann

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #97 on: March 08, 2010, 02:02:15 PM »
 Margot & Ann-  you are both making this fascinating to me!  I am not bored  or confused at all.  I  live in London  twice a year,  and have  for a long time, but did not know this history. I knew the Westminsters  owned half of the West End- including the US embassy plot. But not much else.  I have a massive LONDON ENCYCLOPAEDIA which is  a reference, but keep forgetting to use it. I am familiar with the royal  history, but not the peers.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Margot

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #98 on: March 08, 2010, 02:46:12 PM »
It is a bit of an eye opener to realize that many peers did have urban landholdings and that the Westminsters were only really noted because of the value and extent of their acres in central London. Furthermore some of these urban landlords actually did take a real interest in the development of such holdings. The Devonshire family are still remembered and commemorated today for their development and investment in Eastbourne on the Sussex coast and at Buxton on Derbyshire. Other peers also developed land and villages along the English channel coast including the Earls of Radnor at Folkestone and the Earls De la Warr at Bexhill. Incidentally the Earsl De la Warr had an ancestor the 3rd Baron De La Warr a Governor of Virginia who held land concessions in Virginia from James I and was the first peer to be laid to rest on what would later become American soil. The state of Delaware shares his name in commemoration of his colonial service! As a further titbit, Lord De La Warr was also an ancestor of of the fascinating Vita Sackville West.

Back in Blighty, the Earls of Shrewsbury held vast swathes of land and around in Sheffield in South Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire which later passed to the Dukes of Norfolk. Sheffield today can thank its principal landowner and 14th Duke of Norfolk for sanctioning and supporting the building of many of its impressive if rather stereotypical Victorian municipal buildings. The same situation occurred in Nottingham during the same period, although after the angry mob burnt down his hill top castle during the crisis over the passing of the Reform Act, the 4th Duke of Newcastle and his successors decided not to reoccupy the castle and gradually retreated from the city and back to focusing on their country holdings.

Others such as the present Duke of Somerset are still rather like landlords of old. The present Duke still owns acres in the picturesquely charming Devonshire town of Totnes and lives on the Berry Pomeroy estate which includes these Totnes acres and the ruins of a once magnificent castle rebuilt for Lord Protector Somerset. Others with similar urban although larger holdings include the Earl of Derby and the Duke of Westminster in Merseyside. The Marquesses of Bute used to literally own Cardiff and the Marquesses of Donegall were once in a similar position in Belfast. Eventually Belfast Castle and what was left of the estate passed out of the Chichester family and into the hands of the Earls of Shaftesbury!






« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 03:07:31 PM by Margot »

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #99 on: March 09, 2010, 03:22:29 AM »
The Salisbury lands in Liverpool that were sold off about 1880 were still open country then. Our family house was originally right on the edge of the city. My eldest great-aunt, born in 1879 and whom I can just remember meeting, walked to school across fields and the milk came from a farm at the end of the road.

Ann

Offline Lucien

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #100 on: June 07, 2010, 02:49:59 AM »
His Grace the Duke of Hamilton passed away - aged 71 - last saturday Buckingham Palace announced.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/10251544.stm
 
Je Maintiendrai

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #101 on: June 07, 2010, 03:40:22 AM »
noone outranks a British Duke? well not in the case where he operates a tearoom or is captain of the elephant polo team.
An Aristocrat without land is a sad and sorrow remnant of his heriditary self.

Offline Lucien

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2011, 10:58:10 PM »
Her Grace the Duchess of Buccleuch & Queensbury,widow of the 9th Duke,passed away on april 18th.

Former model Jane McNeill married the 9th Duke of Buccleuch in 1953,he passed away in 2007.
The funeral for Her Grace will be held at Melrose,Scotland today april 27th.

The obituary:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/jane-duchess-of-buccleuch-model-turned-politicianrsquos-wife-whose-efforts-helped-pave-the-way-for-disabled-mps-2274654.html

Je Maintiendrai

Offline RoyalWatcher

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #103 on: August 28, 2011, 08:16:44 PM »
I am lighting a pyre and calling out for the expert assistance of those on this board.

During the course of Zara Phillips wedding, a poster on a Royal blog started referring to the Duke of Cambridge using his Scottish subsidiary title, the Earl of Strathearn. From my understanding, that is not correct and I even said as much. The defense of the poster was that the BBC was referring to Prince William as such. I was shocked. There hasn't been any precedence for this in any of my many readings on the British Royal Family.

It seems ridiculous reducing a Duke of the Realm (a Royal Duke no less) to a lesser status and title...The Duke of York reduced to The Earl of Inverness and The Earl of Wessex reduced to his son's given title the Viscount Severn. It does not make sense whatsoever.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the subsidiary titles like those of Prince William's are for the use of his son (Earl of Strathearn) and his son's son (Baron Carrickfergus) if Prince William is still alive and has not ascended to the throne.

From my understanding, the only member of the Royal Family whose title does changes while in Scotland is The Prince of Wales, who becomes The Duke of Rothesay.

I call upon you, my trusty forum members and friends, to come to my aid and help with my understanding of the use of peerage titles.  

The pyre is lit and the flames are dancing very high!


« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 08:19:05 PM by RoyalWatcher »

Offline CHRISinUSA

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #104 on: August 29, 2011, 07:53:11 AM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14325778

I just popped over on the BBC website and did a search of the title Earl of Strathearn.  Just three articles popped up - the link above is the only one related to Zara's wedding in which the earldom was mentioned - and as you'll see, there was one little sentence that said William's Scottish title is Earl of Strathearn.   Since I hardly think that constitutes the BBC "referring to William" by this title, I think the poster you mentioned must be employing wishful thinking rather than fact.

As you say, it is appropriate to address Prince Charles as Duke of Rothesay in Scotland, but that is a unique case because Prince of Wales is the highest title reserved to the heir to the throne of England, while Duke of Rothesay is the highest title reserved to the heir to the throne of Scotland.  But it is not correct to address another royal duke by one of his subsidiary titles when he is in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland (except perhaps if it followed his ducal title - such as "HRH The Duke of York, Earl of Iverness").