Author Topic: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?  (Read 6987 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DonaAntonia

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
I open this topic almost sure it will be closed down or merged into something else. I have noticed all topics against Duarte Pio and his wife are merged sooner or later. A topic about some of «Miguel thee usurper»'s descendants was also merged recently, as to prove not only pro-democracy posts are removed or merged. But with this last one, a notice was left on the forum stating «moved to...» and the previous posts were all left there.

I can only assume there is no equal treatment to the people who follow the pro-democracy line of the Braganzas and who do not believe a descendant from Miguel the usurper could ever be called «Duke of Braganza». Or a descendant of one of King Carlos assassins could ever be called «Duchess».

I believe these titles must be discussed amongst the heirs of King Carlos' aunts or those of King Pedro IV's sisters. I take no party here. just leave it open for foreigners to give an opinion. I already know the op pinion of Duarte Pio's supporters ans that of the person who signs as «Amelio».

The removal of my other topic is why I have stopped posting altogether. But I open this thread and leave the question:
Who is entitled to be called «head of the Portuguese Royal House»?

I don't think this has anything to do with Duarte Pio specifically, so please do not merge this thread with his and his wife's thread.

King Manuel II died without ever stating who should be his heir.


«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline Yseult

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 867
  • I Love YaBB 2!
    • View Profile
Re: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2009, 11:50:50 AM »
Or a descendant of one of King Carlos assassins could ever be called «Duchess».


To be fair...this is not HER fault, DonaAntonia.
;)

Offline DonaAntonia

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2009, 01:20:56 PM »
Or a descendant of one of King Carlos assassins could ever be called «Duchess».


To be fair...this is not HER fault, DonaAntonia.
;)

You are right, Yseult. I'm sorry if I seemed offensive. But the point is her family would not even be Portuguese by now, had King D. Carlos survived. That's what I meant. Anyway, Isabel Heredia is only called «Duchess» by some because she is married to Duarte Pio.

So I guess the point about my thread has to do with him, not with whoever he chose to marry. Or, more likely, it has to do with his father, Duarte Nuno.


«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline Amelio

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2009, 06:26:12 PM »
I know you don't like me Dona Antonia, but I will give my opinion:
The title should be given to whoever fills in the Constitutional rules that were law when Portugal was a Monarchy for the last time (the eve of October 5, 1910). Therefore, it must be given to the heirs of Princess Maria Ana, King Luis' sister. They may be foreigners, but any of them can come and live in Portugal and have children here. After all, it was what the banned branch of the earlier generation (Miguel's) did. And they call themselves «Duke of Braganza» because of that. But as far as I know they are still officially banned by the Portuguese Monarchy. No king ever admited them back. Only a republican dictator: Salazar.
Prince Maria Emanuel of Saschen should issue a statement about what he thinks about this issue. Even if he is not interested in it. As an European, he owes it to the Portuguese people.

Offline Jose II

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 124
    • View Profile
Re: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2009, 10:47:11 AM »


I told you once and I will tell you once again:
Do your homework before you post such silly remarks.

But as far as I know they are still officially banned by the Portuguese Monarchy.

I wonder if you realize that the Portuguese Monarchy, unfortunately, ended in October 1910.
For almost a century we (sadly) have the Portuguese Republic.

And it was indeed the Portuguese Republic that revoked the Lei do Banimento in the 1950's.

No king ever admited them back.

So since there is no king since 1910, the descendants of King D.Miguel should be banned from their rightful country for ever and ever until the end of times...
That's an intelligent consideration.
Or perhaps they should have to wait that D.Sebastião (a true king) would return in a foggy morning and humbly ask him to revoke that criminous law.

Prince Maria Emanuel of Saschen should issue a statement about what he thinks about this issue. Even if he is not interested in it. As an European, he owes it to the Portuguese people.

Pr.Maria Emmanuel should be more concerned with his own succession as he did not have children, his nephew and heir (from his younger sister) died and he was compelled to make do with the children from his other sister non-royal wedding.
He is a total strange in Portugal, 99,999999% of the portuguese people never heard of him or would bother to what he thinks about a country I wonder if he ever visited.
A country to which he has no succession rights as you seem to forget as both Infantas D.Maria Anna and D. Antónia renounced her rights when they married foreign princes.

Offline DonaAntonia

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2009, 06:20:30 PM »
Ok, Ok, Gentlemen!
Cavalheiros: não discutam!
Thank you José and Amelio, but I already knew your opinions. Anyway, I would like to hear someone impartial. Thank you.


«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13061
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
Re: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2009, 07:40:56 PM »
I must take exception to the idea these posts/threads were merged with some ulterior motive. They were merged with no more consideration than the fact that the section was almost impossible to navigate around and most threads had a handful of posts. ANY post dealing with Dom Duarte should be in his thread. Period. It only has to do with the fact that this isn't his thread but rather one devoted to the entirety of Iberian royalty and, as such, has many individuals who people may want to post about and deserve to have enough room to do so and have their posts noticed rather than drowned up by short-lived threads. The Miguel posts were also moved with NO political agenda. I don't even know, or, quite frankly, care much about modern wrangling over who is the rightful heir to ANY throne. My only agenda is to make these threads navigatable to our Forum members. I will leave this thread isolated from the Duarte thread because it seems to be dealing with the issue of succession rather than the individual or his family.
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Offline Amelio

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2009, 10:50:45 AM »


I wonder if you realize that the Portuguese Monarchy, unfortunately, ended in October 1910.
For almost a century we (sadly) have the Portuguese Republic.

And it was indeed the Portuguese Republic that revoked the Lei do Banimento in the 1950's.

No king ever admited them back.

So since there is no king since 1910, the descendants of King D.Miguel should be banned from their rightful country for ever and ever until the end of times...
That's an intelligent consideration.
Or perhaps they should have to wait that D.Sebastião (a true king) would return in a foggy morning and humbly ask him to revoke that criminous law.

Prince Maria Emanuel of Saschen should issue a statement about what he thinks about this issue. Even if he is not interested in it. As an European, he owes it to the Portuguese people.

Pr.Maria Emmanuel should be more concerned with his own succession as he did not have children, his nephew and heir (from his younger sister) died and he was compelled to make do with the children from his other sister non-royal wedding.
He is a total strange in Portugal, 99,999999% of the Portuguese people never heard of him or would bother to what he thinks about a country I wonder if he ever visited.
A country to which he has no succession rights as you seem to forget as both Infantas D.Maria Anna and D. Antónia renounced her rights when they married foreign princes.


Oh, so now we follow a law that the Republic published over the law of Portugal's kings?? -Great! What a true Royalist you are, Jose!

Prince Maria Emanuel of Saxony's personal issue problems have nothing to do with his obligations towards Portugal as a descendant of a Portuguese Infanta.

And Infanta D. Maria Ana clearly abdicated in favour of her brothers and sister. The contract from 1859 clearly states that she would regain her succession rights if none of them had issue.

Offline Jose II

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 124
    • View Profile
Re: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2009, 11:06:39 AM »


And Infanta D. Maria Ana clearly abdicated in favour of her brothers and sister. The contract from 1859 clearly states that she would regain her succession rights if none of them had issue.

IF, and that's a big IF, that is true, then Pr. Maria-Emanuel has NO RIGHTS to the the Portuguese successions.
D.Maria Ana's siblings, D.Luis and D.Antónia did have issue, you know ?

Offline DonaAntonia

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2009, 01:22:37 PM »
I must take exception to the idea these posts/threads were merged with some ulterior motive. They were merged with no more consideration than the fact that the section was almost impossible to navigate around and most threads had a handful of posts. ANY post dealing with Dom Duarte should be in his thread. Period. It only has to do with the fact that this isn't his thread but rather one devoted to the entirety of Iberian royalty and, as such, has many individuals who people may want to post about and deserve to have enough room to do so and have their posts noticed rather than drowned up by short-lived threads. The Miguel posts were also moved with NO political agenda. I don't even know, or, quite frankly, care much about modern wrangling over who is the rightful heir to ANY throne. My only agenda is to make these threads navigatable to our Forum members. I will leave this thread isolated from the Duarte thread because it seems to be dealing with the issue of succession rather than the individual or his family.

Thank you for the explanation, GrandDuchessElla. I accept it even if I do not agree with everything, of course. I love this forum!


«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline DonaAntonia

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2009, 01:26:19 PM »


And Infanta D. Maria Ana clearly abdicated in favour of her brothers and sister. The contract from 1859 clearly states that she would regain her succession rights if none of them had issue.

IF, and that's a big IF, that is true, then Pr. Maria-Emanuel has NO RIGHTS to the the Portuguese successions.
D.Maria Ana's siblings, D.Luis and D.Antónia did have issue, you know ?

I don't know if Prince Maria Emanuel has no rights. But King Luis has no issue right now. So that leaves the Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen family. Two of Princess Antonia's grandsons were twins and married their first cousins the Princesses of Saschen. I think their heirs also should have something to say about this. One of them , in fact, has a factory in Portugal and gives employment to many Portuguese workers, I believe.


«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13061
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
Re: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2009, 06:54:40 PM »
I must take exception to the idea these posts/threads were merged with some ulterior motive. They were merged with no more consideration than the fact that the section was almost impossible to navigate around and most threads had a handful of posts. ANY post dealing with Dom Duarte should be in his thread. Period. It only has to do with the fact that this isn't his thread but rather one devoted to the entirety of Iberian royalty and, as such, has many individuals who people may want to post about and deserve to have enough room to do so and have their posts noticed rather than drowned up by short-lived threads. The Miguel posts were also moved with NO political agenda. I don't even know, or, quite frankly, care much about modern wrangling over who is the rightful heir to ANY throne. My only agenda is to make these threads navigatable to our Forum members. I will leave this thread isolated from the Duarte thread because it seems to be dealing with the issue of succession rather than the individual or his family.

Thank you for the explanation, GrandDuchessElla. I accept it even if I do not agree with everything, of course. I love this forum!

I'm glad you love the Forum--I love it too!  :) I did take your concerns to heart. In the Slipping Standards section (where we've discussed some of these issues) I reposted our 2 separate postings (here and regarding the Antonia thread) as I really do want to hear concerns about the weeding and also to make clear these explainations (even if people still disagree) and misconceptions that people have. (ie some people believe posts disappear when threads are merged but that doesn't happen). I hope to get further imput and/or questions about some concerns people have.
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Offline DonaAntonia

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2009, 07:25:25 PM »
I must take exception to the idea these posts/threads were merged with some ulterior motive. They were merged with no more consideration than the fact that the section was almost impossible to navigate around and most threads had a handful of posts. ANY post dealing with Dom Duarte should be in his thread. Period. It only has to do with the fact that this isn't his thread but rather one devoted to the entirety of Iberian royalty and, as such, has many individuals who people may want to post about and deserve to have enough room to do so and have their posts noticed rather than drowned up by short-lived threads. The Miguel posts were also moved with NO political agenda. I don't even know, or, quite frankly, care much about modern wrangling over who is the rightful heir to ANY throne. My only agenda is to make these threads navigatable to our Forum members. I will leave this thread isolated from the Duarte thread because it seems to be dealing with the issue of succession rather than the individual or his family.

Thank you for the explanation, GrandDuchessElla. I accept it even if I do not agree with everything, of course. I love this forum!

I'm glad you love the Forum--I love it too!  :) I did take your concerns to heart. In the Slipping Standards section (where we've discussed some of these issues) I reposted our 2 separate postings (here and regarding the Antonia thread) as I really do want to hear concerns about the weeding and also to make clear these explainations (even if people still disagree) and misconceptions that people have. (ie some people believe posts disappear when threads are merged but that doesn't happen). I hope to get further imput and/or questions about some concerns people have.

Thank you. It really took me some time to figure out where my Princess Antonia posts were. I am still a bit sad she has been moved «abroad» ;-) It is a kind of Destiny. She was so sad herself because she had to leave Portugal! I think it made her unhappy for the rest of her life. And having to deal with the death of every single member of her family too.
Anyway, I will go to the Slipping Standards section and take a look. Thank you again for your interest and concern.


«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline Jose II

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 124
    • View Profile
Re: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2009, 10:23:58 AM »


And Infanta D. Maria Ana clearly abdicated in favour of her brothers and sister. The contract from 1859 clearly states that she would regain her succession rights if none of them had issue.

IF, and that's a big IF, that is true, then Pr. Maria-Emanuel has NO RIGHTS to the the Portuguese successions.
D.Maria Ana's siblings, D.Luis and D.Antónia did have issue, you know ?

I don't know if Prince Maria Emanuel has no rights. But King Luis has no issue right now. So that leaves the Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen family. Two of Princess Antonia's grandsons were twins and married their first cousins the Princesses of Saschen. I think their heirs also should have something to say about this. One of them , in fact, has a factory in Portugal and gives employment to many Portuguese workers, I believe.

I'd like to see the marraige contract between Infanta D. Maria Anna and the Prince of Saxony.

If the clause really plainly just said that she would regain her succession rights if neither of her siblings had a heir, as both D.Luis and D.Antónia had children, D. Maria Anna descendants are cut off from the succession.

Who would be the H-Sigmaringen prince who has a factory in Portugal ?
Never heard of that nor have I noticed that any of the brothres/descendants would live here..

But that's interesting because when I was a young boy (1º ano do liceu) there were some Hohenzollern-Sigmaringens studying in the same school as I was . They would be in the 6/7 years.
By the time I knew nothing about the family, just found the name rather intriguing .
I asked on Genea Forum who could be those H-S living in Portugal in the early 70's but I could not get an answer.

Would you know who they could be ?

Offline DonaAntonia

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Who is indeed the person(s) who can claim to be «Duke of Braganza»?
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2009, 06:08:21 PM »
Hi José,
Nice to be friends again, after so much discussion. Sorry if some of my words seem hasty. I have tried to research about the Hohenzolern-Sigmaringen and did find out they have a factory up north and were always close to Portugal. They have not forgotten Dona Antonia's legacy. I have been told they are simple and discreet and never mention any rights to anything that is Portuguese. Their factory is called «Zollern» and it is in Maia, near Oporto.
As for Maria Anna's wedding contract, it was published in 1859. Rocha Martins, of course, alludes to it often, specially in texts of «Ilustração Portuguesa» (1900's) and «Arquivo Gráfico» (1930's). Rocha Martins, as you for sure know, is the royal historian who published many of the known facts about the Royal Family for the first time. He was a militant royalist until the death of King Manuel II. After that, having given up the idea of a Portuguese pretender who could follow the Liberal legacy, he turned to the Republic instead. I think I read it somewhere that Salazar was terrified of his chronics and the newpaper boys used to sell the night titles screaming: «Fala o Rocha! Está o Governo à brocha!» («Rocha speaks! The Government is ... well... how do I put it in English... er... in a mess??»)
I'll check if I can get the whole text of the contract and post some of its 18 items when I find it.


«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)