Author Topic: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson  (Read 233543 times)

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Offline Crazy_Claire01

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The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« on: April 02, 2004, 06:06:10 AM »
Has any 1 read this book? I've just started reading this book and it's brill! This is the book to read if you wanna know what really happened to the Romanovs. :D
If you enjoy reading something, keep reading it!!!

Offline Antonio_P.Caballer

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2004, 07:12:26 AM »
Hello Claire,
Iīve read and reread this book and you will find itīs the best book to this day about the last days of the Romanovs. The research and information is outstanding. You can also ask Penny for their special edition of some material not included in the book.

Offline Louise

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2004, 12:07:14 PM »
I have just started on FOTR, and I have to say I am so impressed with the book. I am just on Ruin of An Empire and already so many myths and misconceptions about the Romanov's are being debunked. Instead of the fables regarding the Imperial couple, I'm starting to see the "real" people they were. I think I'm going to admire them more with thier faults than I do already with their perfections.

I really did consider calling into work this afternoon and saying I had a bad cold. However responsibility won out. However, I am bringing the book to work with me and I WILL find time to read.

Louise
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2004, 12:51:17 PM »
I think just about everyone on this entire board has read it!  Personally I am very impressed & particularly appreciate the refreshing perspective on the family itself. I would like to see a "pre-quel" Tobolsk and even before.  Considering the massive research involved,  Penny & Greg must have at least one other volume in them !
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Offline Sarai

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2004, 01:42:46 PM »
I have not yet read this book, but I must admit that this board has done a lot to promote it, as I have heard nothing but good things about it here! Whereas before I didn't know much about this book, now I definitely want to purchase it after reading so much about it here. It certainly seems like "required reading" for Romanov buffs. It especially intrigues me because after having read so much about this subject and thinking one has read just about all there is to know, this book contains new information, which is exactly what I am seeking.
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Offline _Rodger_

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2004, 02:23:27 PM »
Actually, this board seems to function as an advertising and cheerleading venue for King and Wilson.  That's okay I suppose, but it's important also to bear that in mind.

I've read the book, but there are some serious issues regarding sources and speculation, and that King and Wilson may have been too reliant particularly on questionable Soviet sources.


 
WARNING!!!!  This post may be hazardous to one's sense of things.  Read with caution.

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2004, 03:58:17 PM »
Quote
Actually, this board seems to function as an advertising and cheerleading venue for King and Wilson.  That's okay I suppose, but it's important also to bear that in mind.


I'm not sure how fair this comment is.  I think that our book is popular right now because it's the latest publication.  As soon as the next one comes along from someone else, I'm sure we'll be last week's news.  8)


Quote
I've read the book, but there are some serious issues regarding sources and speculation, and that King and Wilson may have been too reliant particularly on questionable Soviet sources.


To be fair to us, we didn't just willy-nilly use any and all Soviet sources to come our way.  We always prodeeded with caution, weighing and measuring ALL testimony very carefully -- whether Bolshevik, Soviet or monarchist in origin.  Everyone involved in this case had an agenda!

Ultimately, the people who tend to think that we overly relied on Soviet sources are those who think that the murders may not have happened at all -- because after all, we only have Bolshevik testimony that it did!  So perhaps because Greg and I believe that the murders happened, we have already gone too far, in some opinions, in "trusting" Soviet sources.

I sense that you, Rodger, have serious doubts that the murders ever took place.  And I really, really would like someone to explore that possibility seriously -- more recently than Summers and Mangold, I mean.  In the present with so much more available to researchers.  The Fate of the Romanovs, while being the most recent "word" on the case (and what we believe) is certainly not the "last word" on the case.  And I, for one, can't wait for next!
  :D

Penny
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline _Rodger_

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2004, 04:42:16 PM »
Hi Penny,

And here I thought I was being so coy about my own beliefs on the matter . . .  ;)
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Offline _Rodger_

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2004, 05:04:51 PM »
But wait!  I wasn't finished.  The machine went ahead and posted before I could finish.   :o

Yes, I am one of those wackoes who doubts the murder ever took place at all.  I'll keep my eyes open for Valmont's empty straight jacket, lest it be tailored specifically for my size.   :P

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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2004, 09:43:39 PM »
You are WAY too cool ever to end up in Uncle Valmont's straight-jacket, Rodger!  8)
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2004, 12:33:08 PM »
Hey, I like my Uncle Valmont!   :D

The King/Wilson book is being discussed because it is the most current publication, and also because it is quite detailed, and also because it is highly iconoclastic. I've found a few errors--minor things that should have been caught by the editors--but overall I think it is an extremely fine book, and I'm very grateful to Penny King and Greg Wilson for their scholarship and labor.

I always leave room for "new developments," and who knows what information might come forth as time goes on. But after all the evidence that so far has been brought to our attention, it seems extremely unlikely that any of the  Ipatiev prisoners survived.  Plus, when it comes to these fanciful stories about escapes and so forth, I keep remembering what I once heard Miep Gies, an employee of Otto Frank's at the time the Frank family went into hiding, tell all of us who attended one of her lectures--"To those who tell me the Holocaust never happened, I say, 'Then where is Anne Frank? Show me Anne. Tell me where she is!'"  

That's the way I feel about the Romanov situation. And those who did claim to be OTMAA turned out to be charlatans or mental cases. Only Anna Anderson seemed to have some basis for her claims, and she did have some impressive support.  But there were too many inconsistencies, and the DNA evidence was damning . . . though I did feel empathy for Peter Kurth and the Botkin descendents, and certain elements of the story still cause me to question my core beliefs.  

Many of us came to this story hoping--believing!--that someone had survived.  But while it's good to keep an open mind, it's also mentally healthy to avoid denial.  For myself, at least, beyond the romance of the story, I find the saga of Nicholas and Alexandra more of a cautionary tale.  The world cannot afford a World War III.

Offline ptitchka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2004, 04:25:23 PM »
I must confess that though I came away from FotR with mixed feelings I think it a monumental piece of work no one with a serious interest in the Imperial Family can ignore.  

Rodger - I must disagree with you about the attempted cremation of the Heir and one of his sisters.  While I agree it's implausible that Alexei and Marie could have been completely disposed of in that manner given those conditions (and please forgive me if this just sounded indelicate), would it not have made sense to their executioners to smother the flames and bury all traces of the pyre?  I have also heard (in anticipation of those that said 'then why haven't the traces been found) that road construction had been done in the Pigs' Meadow area prior to the discovery of the mass grave of the rest of the family, and the last thing the workers would have expected to find was the remains of two children as they churned up the ground.  Maybe the cremation was not attempted in that immediate area....  but if the children had rolled off the cart somewhere on the way, the 'funeral' occurred elsewhere, and may not even have involved burning.

I have a question for Ms. Wilson --  Assuming, ma'am, that, as your book relates, poor Alexei was that brutally slain, the attempt to cremate him failed, and he was buried where he lay, how would the Bolsheviks have explained the whereabouts of whatever sister was later said to have been burnt with him?

Offline _Rodger_

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2004, 07:22:16 PM »
Well, there are two problems with the scenario you've outlined regarding the disposal of the alleged 2 missing 'remains.'

First, they claimed complete destruction.  They literally said that they had cremated the remains and there was nothing left, including clothing, and more importantly, NO TEETH!  

Secondly, that area has been excavated repeatedly for the past century for remains, and nothing credible has been found.

One can conclude from the second point that the first point is correct.  But then that begs the question regarding the ability to cremate remains completely under the conditions described by the 'witnesses.'  

Given the inability of search parties to locate the remains, then a third pathway, so to speak, has to be considered in the absence of any credible evidence.
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2004, 08:50:27 PM »
And where is this 3rd avenue?
I am familiar with cremation- & you are correct, teeth must be ground, yet, usuallay small bits are left, which are scattered. That is the answer- to me- scattered.
[not so sure about that word though]
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2004, 11:57:14 PM »
Quote
I have a question for Ms. Wilson --  Assuming, ma'am, that, as your book relates, poor Alexei was that brutally slain, the attempt to cremate him failed, and he was buried where he lay, how would the Bolsheviks have explained the whereabouts of whatever sister was later said to have been burnt with him?


You must be referring to Yurovsky's 1922 account of the burial in which he claims to have burned only one body, that of Alexei. He is quite clear on this point: "I ordered that we begin the burning with Alexei.  We laid his body down, and soaked it with gasoline, and quickly set it on fire, just to see if it would work, since no one knew how to go about this...It was not possible for us to burn any more of the bodies, for the farmers and workers were beginning to be about..."   He doesn't explain what happened to the missing girl at all, except in a very general way when he wrote that all bodies, except that of the tsesarevich, were put into the grave.

The problem with the cremation is that the accounts of it vary so very much.  Some variance is to be expected, as the statements of the witnesses were given between two and forty-six years after the supposed event.  And things are confused even further by statements from people who were not even on the Koptiyaki road that morning:

In 1920, Yurovsky claimed to have burned two bodies, Alexei and either Alexandra or Demidova.  We know that bodies attributed to Alexandra and Demidova were in the grave, and that neither bore signs of burning/ carbonization.

In 1922, Yurovsky claimed to have burned only Alexei -- presumably the fourth daughter also went into the mass grave, which we know isn't true.

In 1934, Yurovsky was back to burning two bodies, this time, Alexei and "most likely" Demidova.

In 1932 and in 1946, Peter Ermakov claimed that all of the bodies were burned "to ash" by using "five tins of gasoline" and "two buckets of sulfuric acid."  We have two second-hand account from Peter Voikov wherein he agrees with Ermakov that all the bodies were burned.  If you accept that any of the Romanov bodies are represented in the Koptiyaki grave, then all four of these statements are discredited.

In 1963, Michael Kudrin claimed that four bodies were burned; specifically, Nicholas, Alexei, Alexandra and Dr. Botkin.  All eleven bodies, including the four charred ones, were interred in a single grave.  We know that this is not true, because two bodies are missing from the grave (and arguably, the small number of bones left barely account for nine skeletons), and none of those in the grave bear signs of burning/carbonization.  Kudrin, however, admits that he was not at the gravesite -- unlike Ermakov, who gave himself a leading role though it seems most likely that in his drunken state he came and went from the site -- but claims that he heard the details from Isai Rodzinsky.

"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins