Author Topic: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson  (Read 235476 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Puppylove

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #750 on: March 08, 2008, 10:34:10 AM »

 However, short of access to the original as it rests in the Presidential Archive, you would still have to accept K/W's copy as a true and accurate representation.


I would have to disagree here. Just because they were the only ones to publish it does not leave theirs alone as accurate unquestionable proof, especially considering the other errors, misquotes, mistranslations and source  problems already proven to be present in this book. I for one certainly want a second opinion.

I think I used a poor choice of words. What I meant was: if Janet were to post K/W's Russian source material here for review, the reviewer still would have no way of knowing if the document was a true and accurate representation without comparing it to the original in the Presidential Archives. In other words, who's to say it's not a doctored copy? (No accusation of doctoring intended here).
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

"...and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #751 on: March 08, 2008, 10:41:46 AM »
... if Janet were to post K/W's Russian source material here for review, the reviewer still would have no way of knowing if the document was a true and accurate representation without comparing it to the original in the Presidential Archives. In other words, who's to say it's not a doctored copy?

That's true, but I would be willing to accept it as legitimate if the Russian version is presented,  however, I would still like to know how it was obtained from the Presidential Archives. I am assuming that in order for them to translate the memoir later, the authors would have to have obtained a microfilm copy, which they got to keep. This copy can be scanned and posted here, and I am sure we'll be able to tell if it's the real thing or not (unless of course someone will go to a lot of trouble fabricating the entire thing - which I don't really believe). I think that the reason why no one will post it here is because they do not have this copy...Take this as you want to.

What about the fact that the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence says, including the first hand sources of the time, say Yurovsky was born to Jewish parents.  FOTR relies on ONE unpublished source to wholly dispute this, calling it FACT.  Especially when it is Yurovsky himself, who they also themselves call totally unreliable for OTHER things, ie: the murder itself....SO they themselves rely on their self admitted "unreliable source" to validate the statement as fact.


Yes, this is true, this does seem very selective...
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 10:45:25 AM by Helen_A »

Offline Puppylove

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #752 on: March 08, 2008, 10:44:23 AM »
Hi pandora, it would be great if you get the book and give us your opinion (although I would just get a copy at your local library- if they carry it- instead of buying it). There are several issues being discussed, not just one, so you sort of have to go through them one by one. With this book, its impossible to just discuss one thing since there are many issues at play, which is why we keep jumping from one subject to another. But please come back after you had the chance to read it and join the discussion....

I disagree with Helen (first time for everything!) If you're new to this discussion, as I am, and don't know the issues well, having the book on hand to reference and highlight will help you follow along better.

Not sure where we disagree here - I don't think we do. I also recommended that pandora get the book and read it, although I don't know if I would actually spend my hard earned money on it, which is why I mentioned the library. I am a librarian after all ;-).
 

Maybe I shouldn't post before lunch time! I left out "I would buy the book." Helen, I'll bet your library copy is being held together with duct tape at this point!

"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

"...and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #753 on: March 08, 2008, 10:50:09 AM »
Helen, I'll bet your library copy is being held together with duct tape at this point!

LOL, actually, my library system has only one copy of FOTR and I checked it out once before - the last time we were allowed to discuss FOTR and I had to look something up. Right now I don't have it and would have to request it from another branch again. If I found it somewhere used and very cheap I may buy it... Otherwise I really don't feel like spending money on it since there are other books I would much rather own.

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #754 on: March 08, 2008, 11:25:20 AM »
I must be confusing the 1920 and 1922 notes?

Which one, then, did K&W or actually Greg have posted on their web site?  Does anyone remember?

Certainly much can be "lost in translation" so it would be nice to have someone who can read Russian see the original or at least a photo copy of the original.

But one thing I would like to ask.  Why do we need to know if Yurovsky was a Jew?  It would certainly not make a difference to the fact that he was in charge of the murders.

Are we questioning his religion because knowing his "birth religion" would either confirm or put to rest the notion that he was a liar and therefore untrustworthy in other things.  Or do we need to that knowledge to confirm or put to rest the veracity of the information printed in FOTR?

Someone please?

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #755 on: March 08, 2008, 11:28:25 AM »
Annie - by the way.  Your quoting of the letters from Peter Kurth is very informative.

What site did you get them from?  When were they written and do we have copies of the letters that Kurth's were in response to?  Or copies of those letters sent in response to Kurth's?

Very venomous!  (Or perhaps I should say verminous!)

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #756 on: March 08, 2008, 11:48:57 AM »
Which one, then, did K&W or actually Greg have posted on their web site?  Does anyone remember?

I think it's supposed to be the translation of the 1922 memoirs (not "note")


Certainly much can be "lost in translation" so it would be nice to have someone who can read Russian see the original or at least a photo copy of the original.

Yes, exactly, which is what I would like to do.

Why do we need to know if Yurovsky was a Jew?  It would certainly not make a difference to the fact that he was in charge of the murders.

I don't necessarily care if he was Jewish or not, but Yurovsky is a historical figure and I am curious as to where this contrary information came from, since all other sources say that he was. If it's really in his memoirs, I would like to see it, if not, why the wrong info? The original thread, which was deleted, was not even a part of FOTR discussion thread, although FOTR was cited as the source of information that Yurovsky was an anti-semitic Russian orthodox man, but we were examining all sources. 

Offline Puppylove

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #757 on: March 08, 2008, 12:22:24 PM »
Annie - by the way.  Your quoting of the letters from Peter Kurth is very informative.

What site did you get them from?  When were they written and do we have copies of the letters that Kurth's were in response to?  Or copies of those letters sent in response to Kurth's?

Very venomous!  (Or perhaps I should say verminous!)

Love this! The man's vocabulary is nothing if not florid....

It is certainly suggestive of an agenda; I would be curious to know how Janet and Bear would interpret it.
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

"...and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Offline Puppylove

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #758 on: March 08, 2008, 12:29:31 PM »

I don't necessarily care if he was Jewish or not, but Yurovsky is a historical figure and I am curious as to where this contrary information came from, since all other sources say that he was. If it's really in his memoirs, I would like to see it, if not, why the wrong info? The original thread, which was deleted, was not even a part of FOTR discussion thread, although FOTR was cited as the source of information that Yurovsky was an anti-semitic Russian orthodox man, but we were examining all sources. 

Yes, I hope no one thinks any of us is suggesting our view of Yurovsky is dependent upon his religion. It's just one of those passages in the book that jumps out at you because it's completely at odds with every well-known historical account.
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

"...and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #759 on: March 08, 2008, 12:56:18 PM »

I don't necessarily care if he was Jewish or not, but Yurovsky is a historical figure and I am curious as to where this contrary information came from, since all other sources say that he was. If it's really in his memoirs, I would like to see it, if not, why the wrong info? The original thread, which was deleted, was not even a part of FOTR discussion thread, although FOTR was cited as the source of information that Yurovsky was an anti-semitic Russian orthodox man, but we were examining all sources. 

Yes, I hope no one thinks any of us is suggesting our view of Yurovsky is dependent upon his religion. It's just one of those passages in the book that jumps out at you because it's completely at odds with every well-known historical account.

AND the basis for it is one "unpublished" document, translated and not available for cross checking the translation, AND the testimony of Yurovsky himself who the same authors rake over the coals for being unreliable (their words) for everything else he says.

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4756
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #760 on: March 08, 2008, 01:08:44 PM »
Annie - by the way.  Your quoting of the letters from Peter Kurth is very informative.

What site did you get them from?  When were they written and do we have copies of the letters that Kurth's were in response to?  Or copies of those letters sent in response to Kurth's?

Very venomous!  (Or perhaps I should say verminous!)

They were posted on a newsgroup talk site in the spring of 2000. Here is the 'torch' quote:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.talk.royalty/browse_thread/thread/f9e164847222b188/18daa448902069b7?lnk=gst&q=anna+anderson+franziska#18daa448902069b7

I cannot post the other one on the open forum because it contained improper content, but I'll PM it to you.

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4756
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #761 on: March 08, 2008, 02:06:18 PM »
post moved to 'author's obligation' due to topic subject matter
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 02:15:28 PM by Annie »

Offline pandora

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 71
  • Whatever you are, be a good one. Abraham Lincoln
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #762 on: March 08, 2008, 06:03:59 PM »
I accomplished my book shopping and am patting myself, profusely, on my back! I not only obtained this book but I bought it at a very nice price, in my opinion. This book will be the first of my group bought to read and I'm looking forward to having some knowledge of the topic(s) being discussed in this thread. Since I'm on spring break from college, I'm looking very forward to some "fun reading" time. And many thanks to those of you who encouraged me to read it and join in this thread.  

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #763 on: March 08, 2008, 06:48:49 PM »
Helen, I received information that the 1922 Yurovsky note may be found in the Russian journal Istochnik (1993). Hopefully this helps!

Thanks, Jenn, but I and some others had looked into this the last time we were discussing this subject (about 2 years ago - when the FA was forced to delete the entire "Was Yurovsky Jewish" thread), and it turned out to be a false lead... Someone from this forum  who was using the service of a professional researcher sent me this information at the time. Turned out that what's published in 1993 ISTOCHNIK is parts of the 1920 note and not 1922... (see below). I am convinced that the 1922 memoirs were not published but are just kept  at the Presidential Archives, unavailable to the public... But if Janet really has access to a copy of this memoir in Russian,  why not just post it here? At leasyt the first couple of paragraphs where it talks about Yurovsky's childhood. All I want to do is take a look at the original Russian text to make sure the translation is correct. I am genuinely curious as to where the FOTR authors got this information about Yurovsky since there doesn't seem to be any way of getting these particular memoirs which they claim stated all these things...

Reply about the 1922 Yurovsky memoirs allegedly published in 1993 Istochnik:

"Please find below the result of 4-hours work undertaken to find out the availability of document of your interest in the Russian Archives.
 
The Yurovski note of the year 1922 is really in the Archive of the President of Russian Federation:
 
Fond 3 inventory 58 file 280.
 
Some documents of this Archive were published in the special review "Istochnik" [Source], the supplement to the historic review "Rodina" [Motherland]. We looked through the bibliography. There is information about publication the text of Ya. Yurovski's note in the article "The confession of hangman" in the first issue #0 of the year 1993, pages 109-111. Anyway, as we found out, it is the document of the year 1920 and not of 1922 there. "


... However, short of access to the original as it rests in the Presidential Archive, you would still have to accept K/W's copy as a true and accurate representation.

Jenn

I must strongly disagree with you Jenn. The fact that a "representation" of a document translated from Russian but an identified person(s) which happens to have been used by the FOTR authors certainly does not imply that a reader must accept their interpretation as being "true and accurate".

All one can say with confidence is that the document is sealed in the APRF Archives.

That document has been personally sighted by only a handful of Russian historians, and only fragments are available (which I do have).

I stand to be corrected, but I do not believe the FOTR authors saw the document in the APRF archive themselves with their own eyes.

Margarita


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #764 on: March 08, 2008, 06:55:51 PM »
*** Even FOTR lists the 1922 memoirs in more than one place (so no, it's not a typo or "editorial mistake") as unpublished, e. g. @ p 590 -591, Chapter 12 footnotes # 13 and 23 and 32. I will try to post scanned pages of this later. So I am not sure why Janet A is arguing so hotly that this memoir was published.. Perhaps Janet is confusing it with the 1920 or 1934 notes, both of which were published?

Ok, here it is. It clearly states in the notes that the 1922 memoirs were unpublished...