Author Topic: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson  (Read 232858 times)

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #780 on: March 09, 2008, 10:38:29 PM »
The subject of Yurovsky's Jewishness or lack thereof is really has very little to do with FOTR. That discussion should take place in the Russian History section - perhaps under the Russian Revolution.

Offline Belochka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #781 on: March 09, 2008, 11:00:25 PM »
The subject of Yurovsky's Jewishness or lack thereof is really has very little to do with FOTR. That discussion should take place in the Russian History section - perhaps under the Russian Revolution.

Perhaps Ms Davidson should be reminded that the emphasis was placed by the FOTR authors on this very theme.

Chapter 9 and the lengthy small print two page Footnote  # 100 will attest to that.

Those authors it will be seen were at great pains to try and dispel a historic truism. Our continuing discussion on this thread with Rob involves that specific text and the associated claims the FOTR authors attempted to impart to their readers.

Margarita



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Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #782 on: March 10, 2008, 09:57:48 AM »
Since Bear is having difficulty in believing that Yakov Yurovsky was Jewish, perhaps you shall accept this information?

It comes from the Jewish News, № 03 (075) published in 28.01.2004. The author is Валерий Каджая (Valery Kadjaya):

See: The Jewish Internet Club Information Agency
http://base.ijc.ru/basesite/site.aspx?SECTIONID=213240&IID=213246

2. Юровский Я.М. (1878 1938) из многодетной (10 детей) очень бедной еврейской семьи ... 

My translation:

2. Yurovsky Y. M. (1878 1938) from a very poor Jewish family with many children (10 children)  ...

So Bear if the Jewish community, including Semyon Reznik have acknowledged that Yurovsky (with his credentials) was Jewish it is not unreasonable that perhaps you and the FOTR authors do so as well.

The FOTR authors were wrong to place reliance on soviet disinformation on this point.

Margarita


It doesn't matter to me what religion Yurovsky was,  however,  I'd like to know if the information is accurate or not.  If he was Jewish before 1905,  then this means he was lying in his memoirs,  which King and Wilson claim they saw.  This doesn't mean King and Wilson's information was not accurate. They read the material and repeated what Yurovsky said about himself.  They tell us that most historians claim Yurovsky was Jewish.  It's not like they glazed over this information. So,  why would Yurovsky lie in his own memiors?  It seems to me that he would know the details of his life better than anyone else, including the Jewish News, Reznik, Wilton, etc. etc. etc.,

We are not talking about a dispute between writers, we're talking about the individual, Yurovsky, who is in question and who wrote his memoirs and who wrote he was Russian Orthodox. 

To add to this,  the note about the location of the graves were on this particular memoirs.   I believe Edvard Radzinsky was the first to see the original which was in Yurovsky's son's possession, and,  the one the Russian state had was just a copy.  So published or not published, it has been found in two different places.

I'm not going to comment  much more on this because no one seems to really care about finding out the answer for themselves but just keep repeating words which are from people who just may be repeating information that wasn't accurate in the first place.   And,  I'd just like to see a copy of Yurovsky's birth record translated,  maybe, see a copy of the Russian Orthodox records to see  if  Yurovsky or his father were converted...  Same for Jewish records, if that is what they are.

Until I see some kind of records,  I really have nothing more to add, so,  I'll be around when everyone goes into a different subject.

AGRBear

« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 10:02:41 AM by AGRBear »
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Offline Annie

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #783 on: March 10, 2008, 10:09:28 AM »


It doesn't matter to me what religion Yurovsky was,  however,  I'd like to know if the information is accurate or not.  If he was Jewish before 1905,  then this means he was lying in his memoirs,  which King and Wilson claim they saw.  This doesn't mean King and Wilson's information was not accurate.

Well, you know, it might just mean that. "Claim" is an issue here, since it really can't be proven. There is no other evidence other than their word. I would have to have more solid proof from a credible second opinion witness before I would accept it as accurate, considering the mistakes that have been exposed on some of their other 'new' information. You do want the truth, don't you, bear? You don't just selectively believe some people and not others, do you?

 

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #784 on: March 10, 2008, 08:01:20 PM »
The subject of Yurovsky's Jewishness or lack thereof is really has very little to do with FOTR. That discussion should take place in the Russian History section - perhaps under the Russian Revolution.

Perhaps Ms Davidson should be reminded that the emphasis was placed by the FOTR authors on this very theme.

Chapter 9 and the lengthy small print two page Footnote  # 100 will attest to that.

Those authors it will be seen were at great pains to try and dispel a historic truism. Our continuing discussion on this thread with Rob involves that specific text and the associated claims the FOTR authors attempted to impart to their readers.

Margarita



Margarita: I am a Moderator. I believe the fact that FOTR containing this information has been beaten to death (to borrow a metaphor from Annie) and that further discussion on the point of Yurovsky's religiousity rightly belongs on the Russian Revoltion thread. I will however, refer this matter to the FA and GA as you seem to feel that it is not necessary to comply with my direction.

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #785 on: March 10, 2008, 08:11:25 PM »
OK, the question for discussion in THIS thread is the accuracy or not of the material IN FOTR and discussion of that specific information.  The actual question beyond that scope of whether Yurovsky was Jewish or not in the larger sense is for a separate thread.

I hope this is clear to posters.

FA

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #786 on: March 11, 2008, 05:51:39 AM »
Helen, I received information that the 1922 Yurovsky note may be found in the Russian journal Istochnik (1993). Hopefully this helps!

Thanks, Jenn, but I and some others had looked into this the last time we were discussing this subject (about 2 years ago - when the FA was forced to delete the entire "Was Yurovsky Jewish" thread), and it turned out to be a false lead... Someone from this forum  who was using the service of a professional researcher sent me this information at the time. Turned out that what's published in 1993 ISTOCHNIK is parts of the 1920 note and not 1922... (see below). I am convinced that the 1922 memoirs were not published but are just kept  at the Presidential Archives, unavailable to the public... But if Janet really has access to a copy of this memoir in Russian,  why not just post it here? At leasyt the first couple of paragraphs where it talks about Yurovsky's childhood. All I want to do is take a look at the original Russian text to make sure the translation is correct. I am genuinely curious as to where the FOTR authors got this information about Yurovsky since there doesn't seem to be any way of getting these particular memoirs which they claim stated all these things...

Reply about the 1922 Yurovsky memoirs allegedly published in 1993 Istochnik:

"Please find below the result of 4-hours work undertaken to find out the availability of document of your interest in the Russian Archives.
 
The Yurovski note of the year 1922 is really in the Archive of the President of Russian Federation:
 
Fond 3 inventory 58 file 280.
 
Some documents of this Archive were published in the special review "Istochnik" [Source], the supplement to the historic review "Rodina" [Motherland]. We looked through the bibliography. There is information about publication the text of Ya. Yurovski's note in the article "The confession of hangman" in the first issue #0 of the year 1993, pages 109-111. Anyway, as we found out, it is the document of the year 1920 and not of 1922 there. "


Helen, I'm sorry, I really thought the information I posted would finally put this controversy to rest. If Janet has access to the 1922 memoir in Russian it would be great to have her share it here. However, short of access to the original as it rests in the Presidential Archive, you would still have to accept K/W's copy as a true and accurate representation.

Jenn



You have nothing to apologise for; certainly not to Helen. Pages 109-111 of Istochnik issue 0, 1993 are not even a complete article; just three pages of another larger one, so it hardly matters WHAT this unnamed researcher thinks the bibliography claims they consist of.

Of course, in the event that Helen does eventually lay her hands on the 1922 memoir in Russian, we will all have to assume that any translation she produces carries as much credibility as her bibliographical references.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 06:07:58 AM by Janet Ashton »
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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #787 on: March 11, 2008, 08:30:53 AM »
*** Even FOTR lists the 1922 memoirs in more than one place (so no, it's not a typo or "editorial mistake") as unpublished, e. g. @ p 590 -591, Chapter 12 footnotes # 13 and 23 and 32. I will try to post scanned pages of this later. So I am not sure why Janet A is arguing so hotly that this memoir was published.. Perhaps Janet is confusing it with the 1920 or 1934 notes, both of which were published?

Ok, here it is. It clearly states in the notes that the 1922 memoirs were unpublished...



The 1922 Yurovsky "memoir" has been published in segments in Russia and discussed extensively among interested Russian academia for many years.  I have a few pages of that "memoir" in my files.

Thus for the FOTR authors to claim that they were "unpublished" is not strictly correct is it?

Margarita

If it has not appeared in its entirety, and has certainly not appeared in English, then, yes, it is "unpublished," especially to an Anglophone audience as per that of FOTR. Writers make this sort  of claim for their own research all the time. Sections of Alexandra's sister autobio have appeared in Richard Hough's biography of her; her memoir is still deemed "unpublished."

Anyway, published/unpublished; y'all have tied yourselves in knots here; you transparently aren't even singing from the same hymn sheet, and the damned if you do/damned if you don't approach you have to the contents this book says it all really....as the rest of the online community here have also noticed.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 08:37:13 AM by Janet Ashton »
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Offline Belochka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #788 on: March 12, 2008, 01:22:46 AM »
... I think people who are aware of the history of this will know who I am needling.

Time to put away your sewing Ms Ashton because your needles I assure you are quite blunt.

How curious it is that those who want to participate in a sensible and informed discussion about this book encounter selective hostility from you.


*** Even FOTR lists the 1922 memoirs in more than one place (so no, it's not a typo or "editorial mistake") as unpublished, e. g. @ p 590 -591, Chapter 12 footnotes # 13 and 23 and 32. I will try to post scanned pages of this later. So I am not sure why Janet A is arguing so hotly that this memoir was published.. Perhaps Janet is confusing it with the 1920 or 1934 notes, both of which were published?

Ok, here it is. It clearly states in the notes that the 1922 memoirs were unpublished...



The 1922 Yurovsky "memoir" has been published in segments in Russia and discussed extensively among interested Russian academia for many years.  I have a few pages of that "memoir" in my files.

Thus for the FOTR authors to claim that they were "unpublished" is not strictly correct is it?

Margarita

If it has not appeared in its entirety, and has certainly not appeared in English, then, yes, it is "unpublished," especially to an Anglophone audience as per that of FOTR.

Anyway, published/unpublished; y'all have tied yourselves in knots here; you transparently aren't even singing from the same hymn sheet, and the damned if you do/damned if you don't approach you have to the contents this book says it all really....as the rest of the online community here have also noticed.

So the FOTR authors write about a Russian theme sourcing a Russian language document. The book is available in translation in Russian.

If an unfortunate reader ventures to the Footnote and reads the words "unpublished" they just like any reasonable person will receive information from the word "unpublished" that the document has never appeared in print in any form anywhere, quite similar to a doctoral dissertation.

But in reality it has been revealed that the unfortunate anglophone shall remain in the dark while the lucky Russian reader has been enlightened with their copy in hand.

Indeed what kind of tune are these Russian readers meant to sing Ms Ashton? Go ahead and rehearse your singing because you seem to be struggling with the resonance of a respectful tune.


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Offline Puppylove

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #789 on: March 12, 2008, 10:04:09 AM »
Indeed what kind of tune are these Russian readers meant to sing Ms Ashton? Go ahead and rehearse your singing because you seem to be struggling with the resonance of a respectful tune. [/color]

With no offense to Janet on my part, Margarita, you have a way with the English language that makes me smile!

So where do we stand? Is it fair to conclude improper translation without viewing the original document?
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #790 on: March 12, 2008, 12:58:04 PM »
If it has not appeared in its entirety, and has certainly not appeared in English, then, yes, it is "unpublished," especially to an Anglophone audience as per that of FOTR. Writers make this sort  of claim for their own research all the time. Sections of Alexandra's sister autobio have appeared in Richard Hough's biography of her; her memoir is still deemed "unpublished."

Anyway, published/unpublished; y'all have tied yourselves in knots here; you transparently aren't even singing from the same hymn sheet, and the damned if you do/damned if you don't approach you have to the contents this book says it all really....as the rest of the online community here have also noticed.

Good to see you back, Janet, didn't take you too long to stay away from this thread, did it ;-). In any case, I really don't care if this memoir was unpublished or published per se, I only care in the sense that I can't see it in order to double check the accuracy of its translation (or to confirm that the authors saw it in the first place). It doesn't look like you or anyone else will be posting any of it here, so I am assuming you have no access to it, nor does anyone else you know. I have no reason to doubt the professional researcher's word that it was the 1920 note and not the 1922 memoir that appeared in the 1993 issue of Istochnik, nor do I have any reason to doubt that this document is in the Presidential Archives, which are not accesible to the public. I do , however, have a lot of reason to doubt the other side due to the track record of this book. And since no one to date has presented any part of this document in its original Russian format, that only confirms my suspicions that no one had or presently has a copy of it... To be frank, if the authors of FOTR had approached this 1922 memoir as they did many other sources in their book, which are questionable, to say the least (as the rest of the online community here have also noticed), I don't have too much faith in this one... I understand that Greg King is your friend, and you will do almost anything to cover for him, but that only shows that you are not objective about this. But to give credit where credit is due, all your endevors to convince us show that you are obviously a very loyal friend, so 3 stars for you  :-).
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 01:06:28 PM by Helen_A »

Offline Puppylove

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #791 on: March 12, 2008, 01:13:31 PM »
Helen, you raise good points. Is it customary for writers of a book like FOTR to keep personal copies of all cited source material after publication?
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #792 on: March 12, 2008, 01:31:41 PM »
If it has not appeared in its entirety, and has certainly not appeared in English, then, yes, it is "unpublished," especially to an Anglophone audience as per that of FOTR. Writers make this sort  of claim for their own research all the time. Sections of Alexandra's sister autobio have appeared in Richard Hough's biography of her; her memoir is still deemed "unpublished."

Anyway, published/unpublished; y'all have tied yourselves in knots here; you transparently aren't even singing from the same hymn sheet, and the damned if you do/damned if you don't approach you have to the contents this book says it all really....as the rest of the online community here have also noticed.

t...[in part]... In any case, I really don't care if this memoir was unpublished or published per se, I only care in the sense that I can't see it in order to double check the accuracy of its translation (or to confirm that the authors saw it in the first place). It doesn't look like you or anyone else will be posting any of it here, so I am assuming you have no access to it, nor does anyone else you know. I have no reason to doubt the professional researcher's word that it was the 1920 note and not the 1922 memoir that appeared in the 1993 issue of Istochnik, nor do I have any reason to doubt that this document is in the Presidential Archives, which are not accesible to the public. I do , however, have a lot of reason to doubt the other side due to the track record of this book. And since no one to date has presented any part of this document in its original Russian format, that only confirms my suspicions that no one had or presently has a copy of it... To be frank, if the authors of FOTR had approached this 1922 memoir as they did many other sources in their book, which are questionable, to say the least (as the rest of the online community here have also noticed), I don't have too much faith in this one... I understand that Greg King is your friend, and you will do almost anything to cover for him, but that only shows that you are not objective about this. But to give credit where credit is due, all your endevors to convince us show that you are obviously a very loyal friend, so 3 stars for you  :-).

OKAY,  what have we accomplished thus far?

1. Some of us are of the opinion that Buxhoveden was not a traitor to the Royal Family.  BUT,  King and Wilson are of the opinion that she was.

2.  "savage orgy" was taken from a source from which   Moshein used, however, once the original was tranlated, (I am assuming this was correctly accomplished), that "savage orgy" was not part of the original.  At the moment I don't recall if King and Wilson, also, used the same source. 

There is some disagreement in the degree of harasement occurred toward the Grand Duchess on the Russ.  All based on opinions.  The conclusions are all the same,  no one knows everything that occurred on the Russ.

3.  Some of the errors found in the book can be contributed to  publishers, editors,  readers not catching mistakes,  all of which King and Wilson place upon their shoulders since they are the authors.  One of those errors placed a number which directs us to a footnote and the source.  Unfortunately,  the  number had been moved to the end of a sentence which was not part of the source.   

4.  The unpublished memoir of Yurovsky is not available, so, until it's published here or somewhere else,  we either trust King and Wilson translation or we don't. 

Helen,

I hardly find these four items as reason for me to  come to your conclusion

Helen wrote:
>> To be frank, if the authors of FOTR had approached this 1922 memoir as they did many other sources in their book, which are questionable, to say the least... <<

Is there a 5th?  After nearly 40 pages,  it's time we get to it,  unless,  "that all there is".

AGRBear
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 01:49:23 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #793 on: March 12, 2008, 01:52:34 PM »
Bear correcting an error.

Can't modify my last post.

It's 53 pages, not "nearly 40" .


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Offline Belochka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #794 on: March 12, 2008, 05:54:49 PM »
Helen, you raise good points. Is it customary for writers of a book like FOTR to keep personal copies of all cited source material after publication?

Jenn,

Not only do I keep all my references in hard copy as working documents to make comments on but I try to purchase every book I can no matter what the cost. Fortunately I can afford to do that. Sometimes I prefer to have the Russian language and English translations and also include the French language editions because they, as we have already seen are not the same as the original work e.g.  the Radzinsky series differ in places quite significantly as does one of Yusupov's volumes. In the latter case the French edition (also 1927), masking under the same title offered new details not found in his first 1927 Russian language edition.

... and yes the book shelves are bulging!

Margarita
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 05:58:00 PM by Belochka »


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