Author Topic: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson  (Read 232655 times)

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Offline ptitchka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #105 on: September 08, 2004, 09:06:06 PM »
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Similarly, there was the revelation of Alexei as a sometimes downright spoiled brat. For instance, an eyewitness who lived near Livadia described how the heir “liked to greet people who bowed to him with a bloody nose by hitting them in the face as they bowed,” and when he was not allowed to do that, he greeted them with “very bad language” instead. I had read this account before and it does not make the child seem very likeable, but I know that he eventually outgrew such behavior and was generally an agreeable and sensitive person. Although somewhat disappointed at Alexei’s bad behavior, I cannot fault him for it, because what else would you expect from a child who felt so exalted and indulged from his earliest years, and who was rarely punished or disciplined.


I myself chocked this anecdote up to the same sort of bad press the family got from Princess Catherine Radziwill and others who stood on the outside of the Imperial Family looking in.  I cannot imagine an invalid child actually punching, biting or otherwise assaulting another person like this.  In the days before people were taken to court for defamation of character, slander, libel, misrepresentation and plagiarism, people could write anything and get away with it.  Look at the coarser and more hostile things the Bolshevik executioners said about the Romanovs!  Can they be trusted as entirely unbiased judges of character?  (Now I do realize that that's a question like a double edged sword?)

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #106 on: September 09, 2004, 09:29:56 AM »
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I myself chocked this anecdote up to the same sort of bad press the family got from Princess Catherine Radziwill and others who stood on the outside of the Imperial Family looking in.  I cannot imagine an invalid child actually punching, biting or otherwise assaulting another person like this.


I think that it is a little short-sighted to chalk this anecdote up to erroneous bad press; Alexei has been "caught on tape" in the Finnish Skerries, smacking a person upside the head, and we have the words of other Romanov family members, such as the estimable KR as confirmation that the Heir could be badly-behaved.

Alexei was not an "invalid child."  He had a chronic illness, and at this point in the story was too young to appreciate that an ounce of prevention was worth a pound of cure.  At this age -- he must have been five, six, seven at the most, I think -- he was ready to explore the world and test his boundaries, and being restricted from doing so must have been very frustrating, I think, especially as he must have felt quite well in himself.  In a young child -- especially one exalted from birth and, yes, a little spoiled -- frustration can manifest itself in a little bit of petty violence: biting, kicking, hitting, etc.  My own neighbor has a five-year-old girl with chronic asthma; a nice little girl most of the time, but when temper takes her over not being allowed out on certain days -- or whatever -- she bites!

So our inclusion of this anecdote was NOT a condemnation of Alexei, but rather an illustration of where he was in his life at that time.  

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In the days before people were taken to court for defamation of character, slander, libel, misrepresentation and plagiarism, people could write anything and get away with it.  Look at the coarser and more hostile things the Bolshevik executioners said about the Romanovs!  Can they be trusted as entirely unbiased judges of character?  (Now I do realize that that's a question like a double edged sword?)


This anecdote about Alexei originated neither from a Bolshevik during the revolution, nor from a Communist during the Soviet years.  It came from a woman called Catherine Frolova, who lived in the vicinity of Livadia in the first decades of the twentieth century; she was a close contemporary of Alexei's, being probably only a year or two older.  She did not make her statement until the 1990s, well after the fall of the Soviet regime.  Combined with statements from people like KR, and the evidence of the film that caught Alexei smacking his friend, we have no reason to doubt her word.  8)
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline ptitchka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #107 on: September 09, 2004, 06:21:48 PM »
Dear Ms. Wilson,

I thank you for a most civil and well-reasoned reply.  Please forgive me for what was basically a knee-jerk reaction made in defense of that member of the Imperial Family I revere the most.  Unlike the Tsesarevich I do not grow in the quality of self-restraint and patience as I grow older!


BTW - For anyone wishing to read something about how well Alexei could behave when he was older, I highly recommend the latest issue of 'Orthodox Life'.

Offline Dasha

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #108 on: September 09, 2004, 07:12:30 PM »
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Dear Ms. Wilson,

I thank you for a most civil and well-reasoned reply.  Please forgive me for what was basically a knee-jerk reaction made in defense of that member of the Imperial Family I revere the most.  Unlike the Tsesarevich I do not grow in the quality of self-restraint and patience as I grow older!


BTW - For anyone wishing to read something about how well Alexei could behave when he was older, I highly recommend the latest issue of 'Orthodox Life'.



Hi Elizabeth,

If it's not too much trouble, can you post a link to that if one exists?

Thank you in advance!  ;D

Dasha
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by JaneEyre5381 »
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Offline ptitchka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #109 on: September 09, 2004, 07:27:19 PM »
I'll do better than that in your case at least.  I wish there were a link!

Offline Dasha

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #110 on: September 10, 2004, 12:13:44 AM »
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I'll do better than that in your case at least.  I wish there were a link!


Thank you Elizabeth!  I saw your PM.   ;D

Dasha
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Offline pushkina

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #111 on: September 11, 2004, 05:32:03 AM »
where is that link for the alexei article?
outrageous, alarming, courageous, charming.

Offline ptitchka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #112 on: September 11, 2004, 08:09:13 PM »
My dear 'Pushkina'

I am sorry to say that there is no link to the article that I brought up on the Internet.  This article was in the magazine, Orthodox Life, an English-speaking publication of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, and did not by any means deal only with the Tsarevich-Martyr, though what was written about him was very nice.

Would you like me to send you a copy of that article?

Elizabeth

PS:  Oops!  This is trailing off from the intent of this thread.  Sorry!  Could we start up a new thread for any response to this specific thing?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Pravoslavnaya »

Offline JASPER

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #113 on: November 08, 2004, 03:33:20 AM »
Book is brill yes, but TOO MANY inaccuracies and wrong assumptions. Also, some continuity errors. BUT, overall a good insight to what did and might have happened. I am now writing a book about how I FOUND the grave of the two missing Romanov children - Alexei and Anastasia or Marie,  on Sunday 27th June 2004.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by JASPER »

Offline Richard_Cullen

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #114 on: November 08, 2004, 04:54:00 AM »
Well Jasper I will be stunned to hear your account.  I rather think that Greg and Penny's book is excellent and confronts many of the issues not previously broached.  I am obviously missing the bits about inaccuracies and discontinuity, maybe you could articulate these for our (my) information and enhanced knowledge on the subject?

Richard
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Ere slumber’s chain hath bound me,
Sad mem’ry brings the light
Of other days around me.

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #115 on: November 08, 2004, 09:10:02 AM »
Posted elsewhere but needs to be repeated here:I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but to be blunt, such a claim is of too great importance to go unproven. Frankly, the claimant cannot expect otherwise and must expect such a response. We have had MANY claimants of various ilks here, and all are greeted with a grain of scepticism.
To "Jaspar" (who is a lady it seems, in England) I must insist, that SOME tangible evidence, photos, affadavits, something to prove your claim be included here, or else I must insist that you stop making the claim.
 
Everyone always says "I cannot because of the newpapers, book, film..." whatever, but we have been burned before. Our rule is PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS, or please keep it shut.
NO DISCUSSION ON THIS TOPIC UNTIL SUCH PROOF IS FORTHCOMING. PERIOD.
 
Thanks, and truly not meant to be rude, just sceptical.
FA

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #116 on: November 08, 2004, 10:54:26 AM »
I just wanted to let you know, AF, that I have seen your questions, and will answer them -- but I've just spent my morning AP Board time answering points from an article posted on the Anastasia thread -- and I have some other stuff to get to now.  But I WILL answer later today, unless Greg gets here first!  

Penny, looking forward to the discussion... 8)

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Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Abby

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #117 on: November 08, 2004, 03:30:42 PM »
"Fate of the Romanovs" definitley was a ground-breaking book, I thought, and it was so much new information that I was kind of in disbeleif for a while. I had no idea that the girls had animosity toward their mother or were detatched from her at all. And the death scene, which was so detailed, was all new. I read most of the book with my mouth open, lol. As it was the first book to "debunk" some of the "myths" that I have been reading repeated over and over in the other books about the family, (myths being how the family is portrayed as being almost saintly and almost one-dimensional, and also how they were treated while in the Ipatiev house) I was skeptical about some of the stories, like the Marie-and-soldier love story, I had to keep in mind that there WAS new information that no one had been able to access before, and that is a reason why no other books wrote about such things. However it is always hard to accept new facts when the same things have been pounded into one's head time and time again. But I suppose that is how lies are created, and we have to go back to the drawing board and put aside any preconcieved notions we have about the Romanov family.

I look forward to the discussion, too.... :)

Offline Janet_W.

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #118 on: November 08, 2004, 03:57:22 PM »
My reactions were similar to yours, Abby.

Human behavior and interaction is very complicated, and I appreciate the considerable research and documentation in FOTR. Greg and Penny have shaken us up a bit, which is not in my opinion a bad thing at all!


Offline Greg_King

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #119 on: November 09, 2004, 05:54:09 AM »
Hi AnastasiaFan-

I'm not quoting your post for reasons of length, but will try to answer your questions.  First, I should say, I don't see anything that we wrote as "accusations," as you phrase it; we simply tried to present information and evidence, and couple that with analysis.  I guess I would ask you rather specifically to what "accusations made against Alix" you are referring?  Everything within the book is either cited and sourced, or the analysis is drawn from those materials cited and sourced, so perhaps you can tell me exactly what the question is?  One important thing to keep in mind is that our profiles of the family were largely focused on the final years of the dynasty and the time in captivity, and most of the information about their dynamic between 1916-1918 is drawn from previously unpublished sources like the full depositions of Gilliard, Gibbes, Bitner, Kobylinsky, and others, in the Sokolov Dossiers.  It's my guess that you've never read these, since they have never been published in full, and thus are unaware of the opinions on which we drew.

Regarding Olga's relationship with her mother: if you look again, you will see that this information is sourced-it derives from comments made by Vyrubova, Dehn, Bittner, Gilliard, Gibbes, Kobylinsky, and others.  For example, in their full depositions, Gilliard, Bittner, Gibbes, and Kobylinsky all remark on the strained relationship between Olga and Alix.  By strained we don't mean that they weren't speaking or hated each other, but those around them commented on a notable coolness in their relationship.  We certainly don't take the position that they were mortal enemies, and reading this into what we say doesn't reflect our views.

Regarding Tatiana and the reference to Toria: please see page 49; we don't say what you have us saying-our sentence reads "With Tatiana, the Empress mirrored the behavior of her own aunt, Queen Alexandra, and [this should have read who] treated her daughter, Princess Victoria, like a "glorified maid."  This quote is cited, and the analysis that AF tended to treat Tatiana in this manner is derived from a number of sources, including those mentioned above, as well as Alix's letters, in which she refers to Tatiana as being the girl who follows her wishes and attends to her.

The edit of Tatiana's letter was for reasons of space; if you read into it that Alix was neglectful, sorry-that's nowhere near to what we say-we included it because on the contrary it shows how the girls longed to have regular contact with their mother, in a normal way, and the fact that they could not was hard on them.  We didn't distort anything.

As to Marie: Again, Gilliard, Gibbes, Bitner, and Kobylinsky, in their complete Sokolov depositions, all comment that Marie had little in common with her mother and adored her father, that she was far closer to him.  Regarding the letter you mention-again, you've distorted what we actually say-not, as you write, "you claim Marie wrote it because she felt unloved by her mother"-we say nothing of the kind.  We say (page 49) "Marie believed she had been unwanted and was unloved, a situation unwittingly exacerbated by the Empress."  As to Marie's reply-again, please read the book carefully-her letter of response clearly indicates that she was NOT reassured.

It seems to me that you are trying to read something into what we say that simply isn't there, and (no offense) the examples cited above are actually inaccurate representations of what we wrote, or seem to be your interpretation of what we meant.  The latter's fine-everyone forms their own opinions-but please don't distort what we say in the book-it's better if you have further questions like this to simply and accurately quote from the actual text, rather than paraphrase it and add your own interpretation.

Greg King