Author Topic: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson  (Read 233377 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Antonio_P.Caballer

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 533
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2004, 08:43:48 AM »
Thanks for your answer Penny,
May be Stalin didn´t need to show the remains(if he had any) because the pretenders were not taken seriously by the Romanovs in exile and then were not a real problem. Anna Anderson was supported by many people but i think that Stalin did not care at all for those recognizing her as Anastasia. They were, after all, only courtiers or servants, perhaps some princes related to the Romanovs and that´s all. I mean that she was never accepted by any important member of the imperial family and therefore was not a political subject.
I´ve been always unwilling to considerate the possibility of two forever missing bodies. That was too cruel for me to belive. Now, i´m realizing that for now it seems the most probable option. Thinking of those so loved children laying  noboby knows where, and lost amidst the chaos and confussion of those times is so terrible...However that was a common fate for the millions of russians  in the years that followed the revolution and civil war, not to speak about Stalin´s camps. Depressing.

Offline _Rodger_

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 53
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2004, 10:45:13 AM »
Tihkon Kulikovsky's mtDNA did not match the putative Nicholas.

The sample was presented by Mrs. Olga Kulkovsky-Romanov for testing.

Sorry for any confusion.  
WARNING!!!!  This post may be hazardous to one's sense of things.  Read with caution.

RobMoshein

  • Guest
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2004, 10:57:05 AM »
Quote


As we presented in FOTR, the whole murder/disposal of the bodies operation was nightmarishly chaotic for Yurovsky.  Given that they had to do most of the work under cover of night, in a forest, in situations which sometimes required bodies being unloaded from the truck and "tossed in the grass," or left in the back of the truck with a skeleton guard, SNIP
The single item of evidence that most makes me believe that the two kids DID go missing is that Kudrin -- and I think at least one other -- speaks of counting the bodies on several occasions.  It seemed like a piece of overkill.  They were protesting too much.


OR, The murderers were well aware of how chaotic it was, and so they wanted to make very sure that they left no body behind as evidence for the White Army, by counting the bodies each time they were moved to be very sure they didn't leave any evidence behind? If I were Yurovsky, I would have made damn well sure that nothing was left behind as best I could...so maybe they weren't protesting too much, but being accurate?

Offline Penny_Wilson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
    • kingandwilson
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2004, 04:22:18 PM »
Well, the problem with thinking that they were correctly counting the bodies is that.... two bodies are missing!  :o

Seriously, I can see the value in counting the bodies -- but at some point that night, the Bolsheviks lost two of them.  After that time, any claims of correct counts of eleven have to be lies.  The difficulty is in determining when the bodies went missing -- if we could do that, then we'd have  a better idea of who was lying.

I'm comfortable with the idea that they were discovered missing fairly early in the course of the night.  I can't remember which it was off the top of my head, but it was either Princess Helen or her secretary Smirnov who recounted the armed house to house searches for missing Romanovs early on the morning of 17 July, at either 6 or 7 o'clock.  And there were searches conducted by armed and mounted groups of men along the Koptiyaki Road all that day.  So these bodies went missing early -- in the first couple of hours after the murders.  And the fact that searches were made both in town and out in the woods makes it evident that the Bolsheviks didn't know exactly when they lost them either.

So if the bodies went missing from the courtyard of the Ipatiev House, then no correct count of eleven could ever have been made, making everyone a covering-up liar.  But if they disappeared from the truck in the forest, the first count made by Kudrin and a probable second count made at the time the bodies were re-loaded onto the truck after pushing the truck from the grade crossing on which it had become stuck were probably right.

In the final analysis though, it hardly matters.  The Bolsheviks lost two Romanovs that night, and any idea of what happened to them can only be a theory.

"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Reed

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 125
  • Nothing like a good discussion!
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2004, 04:36:47 PM »
Penny - you have given me something to ponder.  :) I have always read about two of the bodies missing, but I guess I adhered to the idea they were disposed of at a different place.  How does one lose two corpses??  Not like they are going to get up and walk away!  And why would someone search houses ( new detail for me. ) for dead people? Unless they aren't dead????  Interesting!  

I have always believed that all of the family were murdered that night.  Hmm......  :-/

Offline JM

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 406
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2004, 05:05:26 PM »
You make a wonderful point Penny :D.

I always thought that the more I learned about the Romanovs, the more sure I would be of what their fate was. However it is quite the opposite. The more I learn the more questions I have.

It's great ;D!


Offline Penny_Wilson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
    • kingandwilson
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2004, 09:27:27 AM »
Well... we weren't confused over the Church(es).  This is one example in our book of a type-setting error.  There were several that we corrected on the galley proofs.  Some were altered successfully by Wiley -- and some weren't.  This one wasn't, though I think it's clear how we meant it to read.  It WILL be corrected in all future editions, believe me!  >:(

The error that really frosts me is in Nagorny's paragraph, where one sentence says he had black hair and the next says he had red.  Nagorny, of course, had black hair.  The red-headed sentence was misplaced in typesetting from Sednev's paragraph, which followed Nagorny's.  For some reason, this one bothers me most of all!

But in any book -- so I'm told by more experienced authors -- there are going to be a certain number of these things going on.  File under "sh** happens," I guess...  ???

Edited to say:  Hey!  Who knew that that was a forbidden word!  I demand my expletives!  He he he... ;D

Edited by FA: There are certain words the Board software has pre-programmed to change. I "re-edited" your post to reflect more your "original"...but, we are used by schools and younger children, so watch your "expletives", please.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline BobAtchison

  • Moderator
  • Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
    • View Profile
    • The Alexander Palace
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2004, 12:53:52 PM »
Penny - you say that two of the bodies went missing during the night...

the last all-accounted for 'body count' is Sukhorukov at the mine when they were removed by Sunegin and others, no?

He says they burned the heir and 'the youngest Anastasia'...

Bob

Offline Greg_King

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 588
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
    • Atlantis Magazine
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2004, 12:59:31 AM »
Quote
Penny - you say that two of the bodies went missing during the night...

the last all-accounted for 'body count' is Sukhorukov at the mine when they were removed by Sunegin and others, no?

He says they burned the heir and 'the youngest Anastasia'...

Bob


Sukhorukov is a conundrum, because there are some serious questions about his account, not to mention his claim that Anastasia was burned (if the Russian forensics experts are to be believed).  Sukhorukov named Ural Regional Cheka head Feodor Lukoyanov as the man who, on the evening of July 17, assembled his group and sent them to retrieve the bodies.  Yet Lukoyanov had not been in Ekaterinburg since late June-he was in Perm-a fact verified by a number of cables sent to and answered by him there, the last on July 19.  Sukhorukov claimed Yurovsky and his friend Pavlushin were present when they rode out to the mine; but Yurovsky was still in Ekaterinburg, and so was Pavlushin-in bed with a sprained ankle, where he remained.  Nor, according to Yurovsky, did he meet a group of men but arrived at the mine to find work already underway.  Yurovsky sent these men-presumably including Sukhorukov-away.  Finally Sukhorukov claimed Alexei was wearing a sailor's shirt, in complete contradiction to the accounts of Yurovsky and Kudrin who specifically state that ALL clothing was stripped and burned.  Finally, Yurovsky wrote that "the boys from the Cheka" only reappeared AFTER the alleged cremation.  So some serious questions about where Sukhorukov was and what he did or did not see.

Greg King

Offline Jane

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2004, 04:15:17 PM »
Greg and Penny:  I am reading your book right now.  Last night I read your depiction of the night of the murders.  It is the most detailed, chilling, haunting and unsettling imagery I've ever read regarding the massacre (and no other word can apply).  Your book is just stupendous--and I haven't even finished it yet.

Jane

Offline Olga

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 0
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2004, 11:25:18 AM »
i haven't read FOTR yet, but what mention is there of Lenin in it? i don't doubt that the nod for the executions came from him in Moscow. and while i'm here, are there any plans to make this board cyrillic- friendly (russian alphabet)?

Offline BobAtchison

  • Moderator
  • Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
    • View Profile
    • The Alexander Palace
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2004, 12:25:06 PM »
Olga:

We would LOVE to have the site in Russian - it would cost a considerable amount unless we could find volunteers!

Bob

Offline BobAtchison

  • Moderator
  • Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
    • View Profile
    • The Alexander Palace
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2004, 12:31:55 PM »
Greg, I have absolutely no doubts about Sukhorukov.  Avdonin and Alekseyev told me his account is matched by another independent account they have read that says the same about Aleksey being in the shirt.

He (Sukhorukov) would'nt have known what Anastasia looked like except from pictures  - just that she was the youngest - it sounds like he is making an assumption based on age or someone else told who it was.  The extraction of the bodies from the mine took some time and involved more than one person...

Bob


Offline Olga

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 0
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2004, 01:44:17 AM »
i would volunteer my services but my russian is fairly basic. what about Galina?

Offline Almedingen

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 144
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2004, 10:00:24 PM »
Greg and Penny,

I loved your book!  Such thorough research.  

With regard to Grand Duchess Maria's getting "too friendly" with the guards, how much did the rest of he family turn away from her for this?  I was surprised to find that she didn't have any jewels on her after the execution.  Do you think there was a lot of anger towards her from Alexandra and Olga or merely distrust?