Author Topic: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson  (Read 235479 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #705 on: March 06, 2008, 05:24:32 PM »
..[in part]...
Ok, I am going to take that as this "published" source does not really exist, just as I suspected... I wanted to give you a chance to prove me wrong, but I guess that's not going happen. ...  ::)

Let me see,  the reason you suspect the "published" source does not exsist is because you haven't seen it!!!

Surly you didn't  mean to imply that you only believe in sources that you've personally seen.

AGRBear

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Puppylove

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #706 on: March 06, 2008, 05:32:08 PM »
Sorry FA....

We're kind of stuck, at least with respect to FOTR's claims re Yurovsky's religion, until someone finds a way to locate the 1922 note.

I know Janet will rack me for this (sorry in advance!) but I was skimming the book's latter chapters last night and came upon frequent passages alluding to Anastasia's possible survival. (Of course they also wrote that absence of body did not equal proof of life). They seemed to come down pretty hard on anyone concluding Marie's was actually the missing body, clearly favoring expert opinions that it was Anastasia's. Where do the experts stand now?

Thanks, Jenn
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

"...and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #707 on: March 06, 2008, 10:40:23 PM »
I think that the 1922 note may actually have been posted on the King/Wilson web site at one time.  Perhaps it is still there but no longer accessible to those who are not members.

I know that I read it somewhere and I don't have a copy here.  Unfortunately, Yurovksy's religion was not my reason for reading it so I don't remember anything about that.

I was looking for information about the location of the bodies and Yurovsky's talk of where the second "burned" bodies were. (Is this the same note that you are looking for?)

Yurovsky talks about his mother and other things?

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4756
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #708 on: March 07, 2008, 12:09:16 AM »
Sorry FA....

We're kind of stuck, at least with respect to FOTR's claims re Yurovsky's religion, until someone finds a way to locate the 1922 note.

I know Janet will rack me for this (sorry in advance!) but I was skimming the book's latter chapters last night and came upon frequent passages alluding to Anastasia's possible survival. (Of course they also wrote that absence of body did not equal proof of life). They seemed to come down pretty hard on anyone concluding Marie's was actually the missing body, clearly favoring expert opinions that it was Anastasia's. Where do the experts stand now?

Thanks, Jenn

After all this discussion, it does appear there is enough evidence we can firmly establish that the AA agenda really was a part of FOTR, and there was groundwork being laid for the then-planned AA book. As I've said before, if this has changed, that's fine, but it would be nice to have them 'come clean' about it.

Offline Puppylove

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #709 on: March 07, 2008, 08:21:28 AM »
Helen, I received information that the 1922 Yurovsky note may be found in the Russian journal Istochnik (1993). Hopefully this helps!
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

"...and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #710 on: March 07, 2008, 08:56:12 AM »
Boche and Bolshevik 1923, Nesta Webster, Kurt Kerlen 2004:
Pg 61 "Francis McCullagh, erstwhile Captain British Army Intelligence Services, writes a wonderful description of the murder of the Tzar, his family and their retinue, thirteen in all, on the night of July 16/17, 1918 at Ekaterinburg (A Prisoner of the Reds, p. 150).  McCullagh visited Ekaterinburg in March 1920 and interviewed Yurovsky, the Bolshevik Jew, who singlehanded had committed this mass murder.  He indicates that Yurovsky had been well cared for by the Moscow Soviet authorities..."

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #711 on: March 07, 2008, 10:44:27 AM »
Remember, Yurovsky wasn't a Jew after 1905, because he had converted from Russian Orthodox or Judiasm to the Lutheran religion.

Did McCullagh give us any information about Yurovsky's family members?  His father and/ or his mother's family may have been Jewish.  So,
how do we find this out?  Anyone ever pulled up his birth or baptismal records which the Russian Orthodox Church would have, if he was part of their church?  Those of you who know people in Ekaterinburg shouldn't have any difficulty in finding this information. If he's not mentioned in the Russian Ortodox records then maybe he's in the Jewish records.  I believe all Jews had to be recorded in Russia after 1830 something.

>>In Russia the statues of 1804 and 1835 allowed Jews to alter their family names but did not require them to adopt them.  It wasn't until 1844, when the russian Jews were first compelled to enter their names in the public register, that they were obliged to assume family names.<<

p. 50
FINDING OUR FATHERS by Dan Rottenberg.

Where was Yurovsky in 1920?  Was he in Ekaterinubrg or still in Moscow?

And,  what else do you know about Francis McCullagh?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 10:51:25 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Puppylove

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #712 on: March 07, 2008, 11:02:19 AM »
Remember, Yurovsky wasn't a Jew after 1905, because he had converted from Russian Orthodox or Judiasm to the Lutheran religion.


Bear, I asked for clarification on this earlier; per FA (if I understood) you retained your Jewish ethnicity in Imperial Russia despite religious conversion. Is this not so? I'm not arguing, just confused.
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

"...and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #713 on: March 07, 2008, 11:05:50 AM »
Sorry FA....

We're kind of stuck, at least with respect to FOTR's claims re Yurovsky's religion, until someone finds a way to locate the 1922 note.

I know Janet will rack me for this (sorry in advance!) but I was skimming the book's latter chapters last night and came upon frequent passages alluding to Anastasia's possible survival. (Of course they also wrote that absence of body did not equal proof of life). They seemed to come down pretty hard on anyone concluding Marie's was actually the missing body, clearly favoring expert opinions that it was Anastasia's. Where do the experts stand now?

Thanks, Jenn

After all this discussion, it does appear there is enough evidence we can firmly establish that the AA agenda really was a part of FOTR, and there was groundwork being laid for the then-planned AA book. As I've said before, if this has changed, that's fine, but it would be nice to have them 'come clean' about it.

>>...they also wrote that absence of body did not equal proof of life...<<

Annie,  

Did you miss this part?  

This is part of their conclusion after going through with us in their book,  theories, other information, etc..

Since I do not know where this particular discussion took place in their book,  I can't give you what else was said.  Puppylove, do
you recall the page where this was?

I assume the reason they "came down hard" on the idea that the body in the mass grave is GD Maria's and not GD Anastasia is base on Dr. Maples conclusion after he saw the bones himself in Russia.  He and his associate believed  (pass tense since Maples has since died) the bones of the youngest skeletal remains in the mass grave showed they were too mature to be that of GD Anastasia.  Since he made his living as a forensic scientist and was considered one of our best, I'd place his conclusion as an excellent source.


AGRBear
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 11:16:42 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Puppylove

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #714 on: March 07, 2008, 11:08:12 AM »
I think that the 1922 note may actually have been posted on the King/Wilson web site at one time.  Perhaps it is still there but no longer accessible to those who are not members.

I know that I read it somewhere and I don't have a copy here.  Unfortunately, Yurovksy's religion was not my reason for reading it so I don't remember anything about that.

I was looking for information about the location of the bodies and Yurovsky's talk of where the second "burned" bodies were. (Is this the same note that you are looking for?)

Yurovsky talks about his mother and other things?

Alixz, if the note's there no one's giving its contents up easily! (not saying they're obliged to either...)
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

"...and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #715 on: March 07, 2008, 11:11:44 AM »
Remember, Yurovsky wasn't a Jew after 1905, because he had converted from Russian Orthodox or Judiasm to the Lutheran religion.


Bear, I asked for clarification on this earlier; per FA (if I understood) you retained your Jewish ethnicity in Imperial Russia despite religious conversion. Is this not so? I'm not arguing, just confused.

My Jewish ancestor was listed as Lutheran once he converted from Judism in Russia.  He did not live in the Pale. And,  he owned a great deal of  land.  His passport did not show he was Jewish when migrated from Russia before the revolution.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Puppylove

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #716 on: March 07, 2008, 11:12:22 AM »

Since I do not know where this particular discussion took place in their book,  I can't give you what else was said.  Puppylove, do
you recall the page where this was?


Bear, give me a few minutes to look up the most pertinent passages; I'll have them for you shortly!
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

"...and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Offline Puppylove

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #717 on: March 07, 2008, 12:06:06 PM »
Sorry FA....

We're kind of stuck, at least with respect to FOTR's claims re Yurovsky's religion, until someone finds a way to locate the 1922 note.

I know Janet will rack me for this (sorry in advance!) but I was skimming the book's latter chapters last night and came upon frequent passages alluding to Anastasia's possible survival. (Of course they also wrote that absence of body did not equal proof of life). They seemed to come down pretty hard on anyone concluding Marie's was actually the missing body, clearly favoring expert opinions that it was Anastasia's. Where do the experts stand now?

Thanks, Jenn

After all this discussion, it does appear there is enough evidence we can firmly establish that the AA agenda really was a part of FOTR, and there was groundwork being laid for the then-planned AA book. As I've said before, if this has changed, that's fine, but it would be nice to have them 'come clean' about it.

>>...they also wrote that absence of body did not equal proof of life...<<

Annie,  

Did you miss this part?  

This is part of their conclusion after going through with us in their book,  theories, other information, etc..

Since I do not know where this particular discussion took place in their book,  I can't give you what else was said.  Puppylove, do
you recall the page where this was?

I assume the reason they "came down hard" on the idea that the body in the mass grave is GD Maria's and not GD Anastasia is base on Dr. Maples conclusion after he saw the bones himself in Russia.  He and his associate believed  (pass tense since Maples has since died) the bones of the youngest skeletal remains in the mass grave showed they were too mature to be that of GD Anastasia.  Since he made his living as a forensic scientist and was considered one of our best, I'd place his conclusion as an excellent source.


AGRBear


Bear, I need to read the chapter more carefully, the salient points are somewhat scattered and I don't want to jump to conclusions I can't support.
However, this is the passage that jumped out at me (p.470, paperback):

"Were these wounds enough to kill Marie and Anastasia? Marie certainly died that night....The evidence, as it stands, does not support any such conclusion about the possible deaths of either Grand Duchess Anastasia or Tsesarevich Alexei....How, we must ask ourselves, do we know the precise moment when, or if...Anastasia and Alexei died? Survival of the executions at the Ipatiev House does not provide evidence of rescue, nor are two missing bodies irrefutable proof of continued life. In the end, however, the complete absence of any trace of their remains means that the deaths of Anastasia and Alexei that night are only a theory of history."

The point of my original post was this: the authors, in this passage at least, were confident Marie died and Anastasia was missing. Yet I've read, probably here on this forum, the recently found remains are most likely Marie's. So where do the experts stand now? If these are Marie's remains, how do King and Wilson explain it?
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

"...and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #718 on: March 07, 2008, 01:09:19 PM »
Helen, I received information that the 1922 Yurovsky note may be found in the Russian journal Istochnik (1993). Hopefully this helps!

Thanks, Jenn, but I and some others had looked into this the last time we were discussing this subject (about 2 years ago - when the FA was forced to delete the entire "Was Yurovsky Jewish" thread), and it turned out to be a false lead... Someone from this forum  who was using the service of a professional researcher sent me this information at the time. Turned out that what's published in 1993 ISTOCHNIK is parts of the 1920 note and not 1922... (see below). I am convinced that the 1922 memoirs were not published but are just kept  at the Presidential Archives, unavailable to the public... But if Janet really has access to a copy of this memoir in Russian,  why not just post it here? At leasyt the first couple of paragraphs where it talks about Yurovsky's childhood. All I want to do is take a look at the original Russian text to make sure the translation is correct. I am genuinely curious as to where the FOTR authors got this information about Yurovsky since there doesn't seem to be any way of getting these particular memoirs which they claim stated all these things...

Reply about the 1922 Yurovsky memoirs allegedly published in 1993 Istochnik:

"Please find below the result of 4-hours work undertaken to find out the availability of document of your interest in the Russian Archives.
 
The Yurovski note of the year 1922 is really in the Archive of the President of Russian Federation:
 
Fond 3 inventory 58 file 280.
 
Some documents of this Archive were published in the special review "Istochnik" [Source], the supplement to the historic review "Rodina" [Motherland]. We looked through the bibliography. There is information about publication the text of Ya. Yurovski's note in the article "The confession of hangman" in the first issue #0 of the year 1993, pages 109-111. Anyway, as we found out, it is the document of the year 1920 and not of 1922 there. "

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #719 on: March 07, 2008, 01:44:41 PM »
BTW, here are two more sources about Yurovsky, Russian websites: http://next.feb-web.ru/feb/rosarc/ra8/ra8-417-.htm  (this one is his autobiography)  " I was born in Siberia, in the city of Tomsk in 1878. My father was a glassmaker, mother – worked at home as a seamstress. I studied in a primary Jewish-Russian school but didn’t even complete the first course… "

http://www.hrono.ru/biograf/bio_yu/yurovsky.html

"Yakov Mikhailovich (Yankel Haimovich) Yurovsky was born in Siberia in 1878, in Kainsk, Tomsk County. His grandfather Itzka was a rabbi from Poltava, father Haim was sent to Siberia for theft, where he worked as a glassmaker, mother Esther Moiseevna was a stay at home seamstress. He was the eight child of ten in the family. From 1885 he got accepted into ‘Talmatero” School at the synagogue, but did not complete the first course..."   

If Yurovsky's family was so Russian Orthodox, why would Yakov have gone to a Jewish school? Why would they have kept their very Jewish names? It doesn't make sense... So far I have not found anything, in Russian or in English to contradict the earlier reports about Yurovsky growing up Jewish...

Jenn, sorry for changing the subject from the Maria/Anastasia discussion, but I wanted to respond to your earlier email and also add this information...
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 02:01:27 PM by Helen_A »