Author Topic: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson  (Read 245992 times)

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Offline Belochka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #765 on: March 08, 2008, 07:00:37 PM »
BEAR,

Lay off the defensive crap about King and Wilson, that's NOT what's being discussed. YOU yourself accuse Yurovsky about lying about EVERYTHING, remember?? shall I pull up all your posts where you question his accuracy at every turn?? Suddenly NOW he's telling the truth. Am tired of your baiting people for the sake of baiting and not for genuine discussion.

Why believe in soviet disinformation?

When an assasin describes an event (even as a matter of record) why should any intelligent reader decades later believe Yurovsky's every word? 

Margarita



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Offline Puppylove

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #766 on: March 08, 2008, 07:16:59 PM »

I must strongly disagree with you Jenn. The fact that a "representation" of a document translated from Russian but an identified person(s) which happens to have been used by the FOTR authors certainly does not imply that a reader must accept their interpretation as being "true and accurate".

All one can say with confidence is that the document is sealed in the APRF Archives.

That document has been personally sighted by only a handful of Russian historians, and only fragments are available (which I do have).

I stand to be corrected, but I do not believe the FOTR authors saw the document in the APRF archive themselves with their own eyes.

Margarita


No Margarita, I am saying the opposite of what you think I'm saying, and since you're the second person to bring it up, I'm obviously not saying it well!

If Janet, or anyone, posts a copy of the document King and Wilson have in their possession, there is no way, short of seeing the original document in the Presidential Archives, to verify the King/Wilson copy is a true and accurate representation.

I am in complete, total, 100 percent agreement with you!!!
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #767 on: March 08, 2008, 07:19:45 PM »
When an assasin describes an event (even as a matter of record) why should any intelligent reader decades later believe Yurovsky's every word? 

I don't think Yurovsky's honesty is the problem here... I personally wouldn't have a problem believing him for the most part if I actually saw his original memoirs - especially since his account of the murder itself turned out to be consistent with the evidence discovered later.  He had no motive to lie about that IMO, nor would he have a motive to lie in his memoirs about his ethnic/religious background. In any case, in his the autobiography which can be found online (the link I posted earlier) he clearly states that he went to a Jewish school, etc. So far Yurovsky has not been caught at lying and there is no reason to think that he did. The problem I have is the fact that there is no way to see the 1922 memoirs where according to FOTR he supposedly states all these things about being Orthodox and anti-semitic. IMO, he never said this and there is some mistake in either translation or some other mix up... I stand to be corrected too if someone can post a copy of the 1922 memoirs in Russian.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #768 on: March 08, 2008, 07:24:18 PM »
BEAR,

...[in part]... YOU yourself accuse Yurovsky about lying about EVERYTHING, remember?? shall I pull up all your posts where you question his accuracy at every turn?? Suddenly NOW he's telling the truth. Am tired of your baiting people for the sake of baiting and not for genuine discussion.

I did not say that I thought Yurovsky was telling the truth or lying in his unpublished memoirs.

...[in part]...

I don't know enough to have an opinion, yet.  
...

AGRBear

...[in part]....   If he was Russian Orthodox then Yurovsky's didn't lie in his memoirs about his early life.   If his records are in the Jewish records,  then Yurovsky did lie in his memoirs.  ....


So, I have suggested someone go and find his birth records in Tomsk or Omsk or whereever Yurovsky was born.

And,  you're right,  I have been lerry of Yurovsky's various statements long before  my first post on this forum to this one.  And,  I see no problem in asking as many questions as I can to discover through other sources,  how much Yurovsky has told us is true, part true,  misleading,  misinformation and just plain lies.  Afterall,  his testimonies (published and unpublished) are very important in discovering what occurred that eventful night of 16/17  July 1918 when history records  Nicholas II, his family and the others were executed.

So, if you tell me that Yurovsky's birth record tells us that he was Jewish,  then apparently he was lying in his unpublished memoirs, if indeed that is what he wrote.  

I'll have to let you and others find and translate the original to satisfy yourselves about the accuracy of King and Wilson's  translation,  because I'm not in a position to do it myself.

Remember,  I don't care where the truth takes me,  I'm just enjoying the journey.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Belochka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #769 on: March 08, 2008, 07:30:22 PM »
Oh, and one more Russian language source about Yurovsky's nationality: http://www.vestnik.com/issues/2004/0721/koi/reznik.htm     "... thus, among the mob of the Ekaterinburg thugs were two unquestionable Jews, Yurovsky and Goloshekin..."   by Semyon Reznik, Vestnik Journal, 15(352) 21 July, 2004 .

Mr Reznik happens to be my mom's first cousin, by the way. He lives in Washington, DC and often publishes on various Russian history subjects with Jewish themes... This is his forte...

Thanks Helen!

We now have clear and indisputable proof that Yurovsky was indeed Jewish.

Including Reznik's academic evaluation, not one single soviet or Russian historian, have noted during their extensive archival research that Yurovsky had ever converted to Russian Orthodoxy.

FOTR at p 582-583 Footnotes:

"Buranov and Krustalev, Gibel, 255. Great mystery surrounds the Yurovsky family's ethnic origins. Most authorities have concluded that they were Jewish. This clearly suited the interests of the Whites and monarchists ... On the identification of his grandfather as a Jewish rabbi, we have serious doubts. The family itself was Russian Orthodox, not Jewish, Yurovsky himself seethed with a fair amount of anti-semitism in his youth - "

______________________________________________________

-> Perhaps the two Western authors of FOTR can clarify the matter and inform - in what year and which church that alleged conversion occurred so that my colleagues in Russia can check the Church records.

In fact why did Yurovsky need to convert to Orthodoxy if the family was already as claimed by the FOTR authors, Russian Orthodox?

Margarita
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 07:34:36 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #770 on: March 08, 2008, 07:38:49 PM »
On the identification of his grandfather as a Jewish rabbi, we have serious doubts. The family itself was Russian Orthodox, not Jewish, Yurovsky himself seethed with a fair amount of anti-semitism in his youth - "

This is the most puzzling part to me, because not only do they claim that he converted as a child (or his parents converted) to Russian Orthodoxy but they also question the fact that his grandfather was Jewish, and in addition allege that he "seethed with anti-semitism". 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 07:56:59 PM by Helen_A »

Offline Belochka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #771 on: March 08, 2008, 07:52:09 PM »
Oh, and one more Russian language source about Yurovsky's nationality: http://www.vestnik.com/issues/2004/0721/koi/reznik.htm     "... thus, among the mob of the Ekaterinburg thugs were two unquestionable Jews, Yurovsky and Goloshekin..."   by Semyon Reznik, Vestnik Journal, 15(352) 21 July, 2004 .

Mr Reznik happens to be my mom's first cousin, by the way. He lives in Washington, DC and often publishes on various Russian history subjects with Jewish themes... This is his forte...

Thanks Helen!

We now have clear and indisputable proof that Yurovsky was indeed Jewish.

Including Reznik's academic evaluation, not one single soviet or Russian historian, have noted during their extensive archival research that Yurovsky had ever converted to Russian Orthodoxy.

FOTR at p 582-583 Footnotes:

"Buranov and Krustalev, Gibel, 255. Great mystery surrounds the Yurovsky family's ethnic origins. Most authorities have concluded that they were Jewish. This clearly suited the interests of the Whites and monarchists ... On the identification of his grandfather as a Jewish rabbi, we have serious doubts. The family itself was Russian Orthodox, not Jewish, Yurovsky himself seethed with a fair amount of anti-semitism in his youth - "

______________________________________________________

-> Perhaps the two Western authors of FOTR can clarify the matter and inform - in what year and which church that alleged conversion occurred so that my colleagues in Russia can check the Church records.

In fact why did Yurovsky need to convert to Orthodoxy if the family was already as claimed by the FOTR authors, Russian Orthodox?

Margarita


My copy of Gibel imperatorskogo doma (1992 edition) at p 255 states that the Yakov Yurovsky's father was a rabbi.

The authors Yu. Buranov and V. Khrustaliev were neither "whites" nor were they closet "monarchists" in 1992. They were academics who emerged from the soviet era.

I fail to understand how the FOTR authors can make such a broad sweeping generalization. [ref: FOTR p 582, Footnote 100] 

Margarita
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 08:00:47 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Belochka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #772 on: March 08, 2008, 07:59:39 PM »

I must strongly disagree with you Jenn. The fact that a "representation" of a document translated from Russian but an identified person(s) which happens to have been used by the FOTR authors certainly does not imply that a reader must accept their interpretation as being "true and accurate".

All one can say with confidence is that the document is sealed in the APRF Archives.

That document has been personally sighted by only a handful of Russian historians, and only fragments are available (which I do have).

I stand to be corrected, but I do not believe the FOTR authors saw the document in the APRF archive themselves with their own eyes.

Margarita


No Margarita, I am saying the opposite of what you think I'm saying, and since you're the second person to bring it up, I'm obviously not saying it well!

If Janet, or anyone, posts a copy of the document King and Wilson have in their possession, there is no way, short of seeing the original document in the Presidential Archives, to verify the King/Wilson copy is a true and accurate representation.

I am in complete, total, 100 percent agreement with you!!!

Sorry Jenn that I misinterpreted your words.  As you guys say in America: "my bad" ; )

Margarita


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Offline Annie

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #773 on: March 08, 2008, 08:07:40 PM »
I took it the same way, so I guess that makes three.

Offline Belochka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #774 on: March 08, 2008, 08:58:23 PM »
*** Even FOTR lists the 1922 memoirs in more than one place (so no, it's not a typo or "editorial mistake") as unpublished, e. g. @ p 590 -591, Chapter 12 footnotes # 13 and 23 and 32. I will try to post scanned pages of this later. So I am not sure why Janet A is arguing so hotly that this memoir was published.. Perhaps Janet is confusing it with the 1920 or 1934 notes, both of which were published?

Ok, here it is. It clearly states in the notes that the 1922 memoirs were unpublished...



The 1922 Yurovsky "memoir" has been published in segments in Russia and discussed extensively among interested Russian academia for many years.  I have a few pages of that "memoir" in my files.

Thus for the FOTR authors to claim that they were "unpublished" is not strictly correct is it?

Margarita


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Offline Puppylove

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #775 on: March 08, 2008, 10:09:44 PM »

Sorry Jenn that I misinterpreted your words.  As you guys say in America: "my bad" ; )


Thanks Margarita, and Annie. I'll try to be clearer in the future!

Pandora, please keep us apprised of your progress with the book. The Rus incident comes fairly early, and Yurovsky's religious background is mentioned near the midway point, I think.
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Offline Belochka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #776 on: March 08, 2008, 11:02:26 PM »
Oh, and one more Russian language source about Yurovsky's nationality: http://www.vestnik.com/issues/2004/0721/koi/reznik.htm     "... thus, among the mob of the Ekaterinburg thugs were two unquestionable Jews, Yurovsky and Goloshekin..."   by Semyon Reznik, Vestnik Journal, 15(352) 21 July, 2004 .

Mr Reznik happens to be my mom's first cousin, by the way. He lives in Washington, DC and often publishes on various Russian history subjects with Jewish themes... This is his forte...

Thanks Helen!

We now have clear and indisputable proof that Yurovsky was indeed Jewish.

Including Reznik's academic evaluation, not one single soviet or Russian historian, have noted during their extensive archival research that Yurovsky had ever converted to Russian Orthodoxy.

FOTR at p 582-583 Footnotes:

"Buranov and Krustalev, Gibel, 255. Great mystery surrounds the Yurovsky family's ethnic origins. Most authorities have concluded that they were Jewish. This clearly suited the interests of the Whites and monarchists ... On the identification of his grandfather as a Jewish rabbi, we have serious doubts. The family itself was Russian Orthodox, not Jewish, Yurovsky himself seethed with a fair amount of anti-semitism in his youth - "

______________________________________________________

-> Perhaps the two Western authors of FOTR can clarify the matter and inform - in what year and which church that alleged conversion occurred so that my colleagues in Russia can check the Church records.

In fact why did Yurovsky need to convert to Orthodoxy if the family was already as claimed by the FOTR authors, Russian Orthodox?

Margarita


One more matter to add here.

Yakov Yurovsky's mother was Эстер Моисеевна (Ester Moiseevna). He married a woman called Манa Янкелевa Каганер (Mana Yankelevna Kaganer).

Which begs the question, if Yakov had allegedly been a convert from Judaism to Russian Orthodoxy why did he marry a lady of the Jewish faith in 1904 or was she a convert as well?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 11:06:39 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #777 on: March 09, 2008, 08:33:00 AM »
The 1922 Yurovsky "memoir" has been published in segments in Russia and discussed extensively among interested Russian academia for many years.  I have a few pages of that "memoir" in my files.

Do any of these segments mention his religion or his anti-semitism?

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #778 on: March 09, 2008, 06:46:23 PM »
Oh, and one more Russian language source about Yurovsky's nationality: http://www.vestnik.com/issues/2004/0721/koi/reznik.htm     "... thus, among the mob of the Ekaterinburg thugs were two unquestionable Jews, Yurovsky and Goloshekin..."   by Semyon Reznik, Vestnik Journal, 15(352) 21 July, 2004 .

Mr Reznik happens to be my mom's first cousin, by the way. He lives in Washington, DC and often publishes on various Russian history subjects with Jewish themes... This is his forte...

I cannot read the Russian page which you've posted, therefore, I have no idea what it says accept for the line you've repeated, which I assume is part of the article:

>>  "... thus, among the mob of the Ekaterinburg thugs were two unquestionable Jews, Yurovsky and Goloshekin..."  <<

Did your mother's cousin Semyon Reznik reveal to us his source or any kind of record which tells us Yurovsky was Jewish or his source?

AGRBear





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Offline Belochka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #779 on: March 09, 2008, 08:19:53 PM »
Since Bear is having difficulty in believing that Yakov Yurovsky was Jewish, perhaps you shall accept this information?

It comes from the Jewish News, № 03 (075) published in 28.01.2004. The author is Валерий Каджая (Valery Kadjaya):

See: The Jewish Internet Club Information Agency
http://base.ijc.ru/basesite/site.aspx?SECTIONID=213240&IID=213246

2. Юровский Я.М. (1878 1938) из многодетной (10 детей) очень бедной еврейской семьи ... 

My translation:

2. Yurovsky Y. M. (1878 1938) from a very poor Jewish family with many children (10 children)  ...

So Bear if the Jewish community, including Semyon Reznik have acknowledged that Yurovsky (with his credentials) was Jewish it is not unreasonable that perhaps you and the FOTR authors do so as well.

The FOTR authors were wrong to place reliance on soviet disinformation on this point.

Margarita
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 08:23:51 PM by Belochka »


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