Author Topic: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortipo  (Read 76620 times)

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2004, 05:30:21 PM »
In an attempt to help clear up this bit of confusion, we posted a new "Imperial Pets" webpage on the site, with pictures. We hope you enjoy it.

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/imperialpets.html

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2004, 07:25:59 PM »
Those pictures are a wonderful addition.  
Seeing the Tsar and children with their pets gives us  a chance to glimpse at the warm family life they had.
Thank you.
Louise
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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2004, 09:31:57 AM »
A very kind reader of the Alexander Palace site, Francesca Belanger,  contacted us about the caption of the photo of the "second" Jemmy in the photo showing the dog in Anastasia's lap, the dog she took with her to Siberia. Our identification of that dog as a "Japanese Spaniel" may be incorrect.

We took that description from Sidney Gibbs' own testimony to Sokolov about that dog:"Anastasia had a small dog, I only know that it was a Japanese breed.  It was very small with long fur, reddish-brown...His characteristic traits were very large round eyes, his teeth uncovered, a long tongue which hung out of his mouth, I don't know which side.  He was called Jemmy.  The dogs of this breed were miniscule and were often carried in the arms.  He belonged to Anastasia, but everyone loved him, the Empress in particular..... Gibbs identified the corpse found as Jemmy without question. We used this as the basis for our attribution as a "Japanese Spaniel" belonging to Anastasia.

SO, Francesca is a dog fancier, who said that while the first Jemmy, seen in Vyroubova's photos on board the Standardt was definately a Japanese Spaniel, properly called a "Japanese Chin", the second Jemmy, in Siberia, did not resemble the breed, but rather looked like an English Toy Spaniel. We sent her close ups of the dog from that photo, and Francesca responded to us recently:
"I heard back from my friend Michele Blake, who breeds Japanese Chin, and she thinks Jemmy was an English Toy Spaniel, too, based on the picture. I did some research in Hutchinson's Dog Encyclopedia, published in the 30's, and saw photos of ETS's that look a lot like the little dog Anastasia is holding. In addition to Jemmy's solid-color head, there is also the issue of the ear-set. The Chin's ears sit higher on the head, while the ETS's head is very domed and the ears appear to join onto the head at a lower point than they do on a Chin. The English Toy Spaniels of today look different from some of the more delicate type I saw in Hutchinson's"

Nick and Geoffrey are both correct! The English Toy Spaniel is today properly called the "King Charles Spaniel"!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2004, 03:57:58 PM »
If the Bulldog or Spaniel wasn't killed until shortly [about two week] before  25 June 1919, then where had he been for almost a year?  And, who had been caring for him?  I doubt this pampered dog would have survived for a year in the forrest.  I, also,  doubt this kind of dog would have gone unnoticed by people in / near Ekaterinburg.  

Sokolov's failures as a detective of eleven murdered people continues to make me feel uneasy about everything in which he had been a part.

Also, I'm grateful when many of you direct us to those links.  I'm not a web serfer so I wouldn't find them on my own.

AGRBear


P.S.  I found a photo of the corpse of the dog in FILE ON THE TSAR by Summers and Mangold.  Ill. 40 by p. 145.  Looks like a Spaniel and not a bulldog, to me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline DOMOVOII

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2004, 11:30:26 AM »
Were "Frenchies" something of a fashion in Petersburg society? Tatiana's Aunt Olga A, had one called Bobtail, and there is a portait of Pr F F Youssoupov by Serov with his French Bulldog on his knee.

I think they are adorable!  
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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2004, 11:55:23 AM »
Joy, the Springer Spaniel, was larger than the other two dogs [bull dog and Charles].  And, it should be noted,  in Europe the standard Springer is smaller than ours here in the US.  We had two Springers.  And,  when we went to England,  we noticed the differences in the size.   Shorter legs .... but pound wise maybe ten pounds difference making them about 30 pounds....  They are still popular among the county gentry.  

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Janet_W.

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2004, 11:55:31 AM »
And Felix obviously loved that dog; he speaks of him in his autobiography.

I believe this has been asked already, but I'll mention it again . . . any thoughts on where the name "Ortino" came from?

It does appear that French Bulldogs were quite the fashion, although it might be noted that Nicholas loved Border Collies and had an entire kennel of that breed; I believe his favorite was a collie called Iman.

It was interesting, by the way, to go back into this particular forum and read Tatiana's apologetic "fait accompli" note to her mother about accepting the gift of Ortino. Some things never change!  :D

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2004, 03:39:49 PM »
Wasn't Joy taken to England, and later buried in Windsor Park?

Sunny

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2004, 08:47:50 AM »
Cannot recall exactly which books it is mentioned in, but yes, Joy was rescued by an English officer and lived out his days near Windsor with that officer. I too would like to know if his burial site is known, and if it can be visited.  

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2004, 04:03:00 PM »
I just happen to read this fact in the File On The Tsar by Summers and Mangold p. 164 when looking for data on Jemmy.  

He was taken back to England ...  [Note on 10 July 04: Should have written that they also talked about Joy and that it was Joy who was taken back to England.]

Maybe, someone else out there knows the answer as to his buriel and the name of the officer.

I also remember:  Wasn't the dog mention in one of those books by Danielle Steel  [not sure the spelling] which I think was made into a tv movie...

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2004, 04:22:18 PM »
Actually, it was the dog named "Joy" who was taken back to England, and spent the rest of his life there.

The Danielle Steele book is called "Zoya." I only read it once (not my kind of fiction, so I didn't pay a whole lot of attention, but I was curious because of the subject), and can't remember if anything was mentioned about imperial pets.

Jemmy was the dog found in the mine shaft, and yes, it was Summers and Mangold who discovered that the dog most likely did not arrive there until many months after the murders.

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2004, 11:44:02 AM »
Quote


After the murders, we know that Joy was taken from the Ipatiev House to Michael Letemin's house, where he was discovered in the garden by the Whites.  Jemmy was obviously taken somewhere by someone most likely connected to the Bolsheviks, for the little dog was still available to them when they were looking for physical evidence with which to "salt" the mine, as suggested by Summers and Mangold.

Ortino's fate, we believe, is most likely found in Michael Kudrin's testimony of December 1963, when he recalled that as the bodies were being moved from the basement of the house into the truck, a little dog appeared from upstairs, and rushed into the courtyard, obviously much distressed and upset and probably looking for his people.  Kudrin is silent on whether or not the dog was behaving like a guard dog, but it would not have been out of the ordinary for a Frenchie -- a famously protective breed -- to become territorial and vicious in defense of his family, the moreso because their scents were at that time overlayed with the smell of gunsmoke and blood.  In any case, a soldier took up his bayonet and stabbed the dog to death, throwing his body into the truck with the Romanovs.  "A dog's death to dogs," Kudrin remembered Goloshchokin commenting as they stood watching.

We think that perhaps some of the "mammal bones" found at the Four Br
It was the bull dog Ortino which was killed by Kudrin / Michael Medvedev, who stated this in his 1963 testimony.others were those of Ortino.

What a brave little guy he was... =)


If you are looking in your book of Fate of the Romanovs it is found on p. 312.

I can just imagine the bull dog going crazy in a time like this.  And his barking would have sparked agitation then anger in Michael Medvedev.

Or,  was Michael Medvedev referring to the dog found by Sokolov and just adding this to his story which he hoped would make his story more believeable.  If that was the case,  then he was lying.  Then were did the bull dog go?  And with whom?  Could the bones, which you think may be the bull dog's,  be exaimined and determined if they are...?  Or atleast know if they are dog bones?  I assume someone has and has made some kind of report.

Did any of the other guards who were there   talked about the dog being killed that night?

AGRBear



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2004, 11:59:55 AM »
Well, there's no real reason for Medvedev-Kudrin to lie about a dog's death -- and his testimony fits reasonably well with what we know about the Imperial pets:  Three dogs went into the house, one -- Joy -- was taken from Russia and lived out his life in Windsor; the second -- Jemmy -- was found fairly freshly dead over a year later, so obviously he was taken from the house by someone prior to the Bosheviks turning it back over to Nicholas Ipatiev -- we will probably never know by whom or why he was taken, but clearly it was possible to walk out of the house with a dog, because Michael Letemin did it with Joy; Ortino's fate has been unknown to this point.  But Kudrin's statement ties up that loose end -- a dog, acting in character for a bulldog, attacks those who have attacked his family, and is also killed by them.

The further testimony -- that his body was also thrown into the truck -- may also help explain the "small mammal bones" found at the Four Brothers.

I don't there's anything sinister or suspicious in Kudrin's story -- but I do think that if he was referring specifically to Jemmy, he would have had to have been more forthcoming with a description of the dead dog.
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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2004, 12:43:11 PM »
Quote
Well, there's no real reason for Medvedev-Kudrin to lie about a dog's death -- and his testimony fits reasonably well with what we know about the Imperial pets...


There is a reason to lie if something else occured in the Ipatiev House the night of 16 / 17 July 1918.

Between 1963 and 1964, how many of these guards found it "suddenly" necessary to write or voice about what happen that night?  Were other facts than the death of the dog added?   And, do these stories draw closer to being the same then back in the 1920s?

Out of everything I've read,  I don't recall Kudrin/ Medvedev story or any other guard  talk about the dog ever being mentioned until 1963 as you've told us it was voiced.  

Maybe,  the French bulldog was killed and when Sokolov tried to find it, he couldn't because it's body was to decomposed and that's why Jemmy fell victim and was planted one or two weeks before he was officially documented in Sokolov's records.

Which leads to why would Sokolov need to prove a dog of one of the children was indeed  dead?  Moscow had already issued statements that Nicholas II was dead.  So,  what purpose was one dead dog or two...?

AGRBear

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2004, 01:48:02 PM »
Quote

There is a reason to lie if something else occured in the Ipatiev House the night of 16 / 17 July 1918.


There is not one piece of concrete -- or even semi-concrete -- evidence that leads one to believe that the family walked away from the house alive on the night of 16/17 July.  On the contrary, there are dozens of pieces of evidence, in the form of testimony from Bolsheviks, guards, Koptiyaki peasants, Ekaterinburg and Verkh-Isetsk townspeople, Serbian nationals, Western European prisoners of war, and even White Officers in hiding that point towards murder happening that night.

The only hard evidence we have that any members of the family might have survived are the two missing bodies.  So at most, two people (and I believe that the missing are Anastasia and Alexei) survived that night.  For me, the possible survival of these two young people is the only point of serious mystery surrounding the fate of the Romanovs.

There is quite simply not a red under every bed... :-*

Quote
Between 1963 and 1964, how many of these guards found it "suddenly" necessary to write or voice about what happen that night?  Were other facts than the death of the dog added?   And, do these stories draw closer to being the same then back in the 1920s?


As far as I recall, only Isai Rodzinsky, Gregory Nikulin and Michael Medvedev-Kudrin gave interviews in 63/64, and they appear to have been given in order to assist Kudrin's son, Michael Mikhailovich, in assembling a radio show on the subject, perhaps for the approaching 50th Anniversary.  Each of them gave somewhat problematic testimony, given their actual participation levels in the events of 16-19 July 1918, with Nikulin's probably falling closest to Yurovsky's account, and Kudrin's mainly being concerned with hammering home the point that he counted ALL ELEVEN BODIES several times.  We cover the various discrepancies and problems with the testimony in our chapters "The Four Brothers" and "Aftermath."

Quote
Out of everything I've read,  I don't recall Kudrin/ Medvedev story or any other guard  talk about the dog ever being mentioned until 1963 as you've told us it was voiced.  


Well, you might not have, because of all the people standing in the courtyard at that time -- Goloshchokin, Kudrin and an unknown number of assassins and/or guards from the Popov House -- no-one other than Kudrin
has left testimony.  He is, so far, the only recorded eyewitness of this scene.

Quote
Maybe,  the French bulldog was killed and when Sokolov tried to find it, he couldn't because it's body was to decomposed and that's why Jemmy fell victim and was planted one or two weeks before he was officially documented in Sokolov's records.

Which leads to why would Sokolov need to prove a dog of one of the children was indeed  dead?  Moscow had already issued statements that Nicholas II was dead.  So,  what purpose was one dead dog or two...?


I don't think that Sokolov had to provide a dog's body to prove anything.  

I think planting the dead dog in the mineshaft drew attention away from the actual gravesite, where identifiable remains might well have been recovered at that time -- so I think that the Ekaterinburg Bolsheviks placed that body there, not Sokolov.
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