Author Topic: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortipo  (Read 76628 times)

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Offline Sunny

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #165 on: December 06, 2011, 01:09:42 AM »
What we really need is to see the dog's name in someone else's handwriting. Maybe Helen A. can help with that. I know she has a number of photocopies of Olga's letters and diary entries.

That's a really good idea. I thought it could be interesting to know how Russian interpretated the spelling.
I tried to find out something about that "hero" of Russian legends from whom the dog (and Malama's horse first of all) took the name, but no way so far.

Sunny, I may have told you of that site, but I had not seen that post!

I used my little Russian knowledge (even if i studied at the college my russian is not good at all) to browse in the site & other blogs, there are some interesting pages i can post you as soon as I can ^^
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Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #166 on: January 21, 2012, 11:57:59 AM »
I know the problem of the correct spelling of the name has already been long discussed, but i've noted that russian sites spell it ORTINO, with a N not a P.
I don't want to rise the question again, just stating it out because it could be interesting to know.
Take a look here, if you understand Russian: http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/tatasoz/post144624543/ (Thanks BlessOTMA to have segnalized me the site!)
Near the end you can read:

Татьяна и Анастасия Романовы с бульдогом Ортино 
Tat'jana and Anastasija Romanov with bulldog ORTINO.

True, but note that the text above the photograph has this parenthetical comment:
(в другой транскрипции Ортипо)
"In another transcription Ortipo"

I realize that this has been discussed exhaustively here and on the Imperial pets thread, but, having read so many letters from captivity,  I have to vote in favor of "Ortipo" as the dog's name.

1) In the Empress' letter to A. A. Vyrubova of December 8, 1917, she writes "Ortipo". And A. A. Vyrubova read it as such, and reproduced it as "Ortipo" in both the original Russian and in the English translation of that letter in both editions of her published memoirs.

2) In her letter of January 6, 1917 to Lili Dehn, Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaevna definitely wrote "Ortipo", with a "p".


3) Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna herself wrote "Ortipo" in her letter of January 11, 1918, to Catherine Zborovskaya.

She wrote:
"...Please convey our very warmest regards to everyone. Ortipo is well, but is turning into such a lazy-bones. She spends the whole day lying near the stove or else on the divans..."

In Russian:
"Передайте пожалуйтса всѢмъ самый сердечный привѢтъ. Ортипо здорова, но становится страшной лѢнтяйкой. ЦѢлый день лежитъ у печи или на диванахъ."

Here is the handwritten Russian text:

[It's a photocopy of a photocopy of a photograph, so enlarge it for reading.]



Note that when writiing "Ortipo" [see No. 1 on the photocopy], Grand Duchess Tatiana lifted her pen after the "и" (i) in order to start the curving top loop at the beginning of the "п" (p).

Compare that with the "п" in the word "пожалуйста" two lines above (No. 2 on the photocopy), and with the "п" in "печи" three lines below.

By the way, Grand Duchess Tatiana often drew the concluding loop of a final "o" as a straight line, as she did here in the word "Ortipo".

From another letter written by Grand Duchess Tatiana on the same day (this time to M. S. Khitrovo):
"My Darling Rita,
Thank you so much for the sweet letter and postcard. I was very glad to hear from you at last. Luba [L. S. Khitrovo] occasionally writes to Anastasia..."

In Russian:
"Рита моя милая, Спасибо большое за милое письмо и открытку. Рада была наконецъ отъ Васъ услышать. Люба иногда пишетъ Анастасіи..."

The handwritten Russian text:



Look at the "п" in the word "письмо" (No. 1 on the photocopy), and at the "п" in the word "пишетъ" two lines below

Note also how the "н" in the word "наконецъ" (second word at No. 2 on photocopy) is formed differently.

When writing "н" or "и" in Russian, Grand Duchess Tatiana would begin with a nearly vertical upward stroke from the line.

When forming "п", she would begin that letter higher up, making a rising, then descending, loop.


From all of the above, I think that we can conclude that the dog's name was indeed "Ortipo".
инок Николай

Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #167 on: January 21, 2012, 12:08:13 PM »

PS: I forgot to add that Catherine Zborovskaya, the recipient of Grand Duchess Tatiana's letter, and her brother, V. E. Zborovsky, an officer in H. I. M. Own Convoy, both read the dog's name as "Ortipo" in that letter, and they reproduced it as such in the history of the Convoy published in Russian in San Francisco, CA, in 1961.
инок Николай

Offline Sunny

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #168 on: January 21, 2012, 12:34:04 PM »
I know the problem of the correct spelling of the name has already been long discussed, but i've noted that russian sites spell it ORTINO, with a N not a P.
I don't want to rise the question again, just stating it out because it could be interesting to know.
Take a look here, if you understand Russian: http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/tatasoz/post144624543/ (Thanks BlessOTMA to have segnalized me the site!)
Near the end you can read:

Татьяна и Анастасия Романовы с бульдогом Ортино 
Tat'jana and Anastasija Romanov with bulldog ORTINO.

True, but note that the text above the photograph has this parenthetical comment:
(в другой транскрипции Ортипо)
"In another transcription Ortipo"

I realize that this has been discussed exhaustively here and on the Imperial pets thread, but, having read so many letters from captivity,  I have to vote in favor of "Ortipo" as the dog's name.

1) In the Empress' letter to A. A. Vyrubova of December 8, 1917, she writes "Ortipo". And A. A. Vyrubova read it as such, and reproduced it as "Ortipo" in both the original Russian and in the English translation of that letter in both editions of her published memoirs.

2) In her letter of January 6, 1917 to Lili Dehn, Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaevna definitely wrote "Ortipo", with a "p".


3) Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna herself wrote "Ortipo" in her letter of January 11, 1918, to Catherine Zborovskaya.

She wrote:
"...Please convey our very warmest regards to everyone. Ortipo is well, but is turning into such a lazy-bones. She spends the whole day lying near the stove or else on the divans..."

In Russian:
"Передайте пожалуйтса всѢмъ самый сердечный привѢтъ. Ортипо здорова, но становится страшной лѢнтяйкой. ЦѢлый день лежитъ у печи или на диванахъ."

Here is the handwritten Russian text:

[It's a photocopy of a photocopy of a photograph, so enlarge it for reading.]



Note that when writiing "Ortipo" [see No. 1 on the photocopy], Grand Duchess Tatiana lifted her pen after the "и" (i) in order to start the curving top loop at the beginning of the "п" (p).

Compare that with the "п" in the word "пожалуйста" two lines above (No. 2 on the photocopy), and with the "п" in "печи" three lines below.

By the way, Grand Duchess Tatiana often drew the concluding loop of a final "o" as a straight line, as she did here in the word "Ortipo".

From another letter written by Grand Duchess Tatiana on the same day (this time to M. S. Khitrovo):
"My Darling Rita,
Thank you so much for the sweet letter and postcard. I was very glad to hear from you at last. Luba [L. S. Khitrovo] occasionally writes to Anastasia..."

In Russian:
"Рита моя милая, Спасибо большое за милое письмо и открытку. Рада была наконецъ отъ Васъ услышать. Люба иногда пишетъ Анастасіи..."

The handwritten Russian text:



Look at the "п" in the word "письмо" (No. 1 on the photocopy), and at the "п" in the word "пишетъ" two lines below

Note also how the "н" in the word "наконецъ" (second word at No. 2 on photocopy) is formed differently.

When writing "н" or "и" in Russian, Grand Duchess Tatiana would begin with a nearly vertical upward stroke from the line.

When forming "п", she would begin that letter higher up, making a rising, then descending, loop.


From all of the above, I think that we can conclude that the dog's name was indeed "Ortipo".

That's really, really interesting, Inok Nikolai! You've helped me a lot. Thanks soo much!
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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #169 on: January 21, 2012, 02:08:19 PM »
Marvelous, Inok Nikolai -- thank you so much for the visual examples. I've been hoping for something of this nature for a long time.
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Offline Sunny

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #170 on: January 21, 2012, 03:40:00 PM »
Marvelous, Inok Nikolai -- thank you so much for the visual examples. I've been hoping for something of this nature for a long time.

Ditto
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Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #171 on: January 21, 2012, 04:03:20 PM »
Thanks.

I just wish that the letterr to Zborovskaya was of better quality.

Perhaps someone will come up with a clearer copy of "Sobstvenniy Ego Imperatorskago Velichestva Konvoy", where it is found as an illustration: Document No. 10.
It was compiled by Col. N. V. Galushkin, of the Convoy, and was published in San Francisco in 1961.
Only 500 copies were printed.
All we have is a photocopy.
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Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #172 on: January 25, 2012, 07:50:24 PM »

I can't recall where I found this link. Perhaps it already appeared somewhere else here on the Alexander Palace Forum, but this is a much clearer example of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna's handwriting (from a letter to her father in 1915), where she definitely writes the name as "Ortipo".

It's quite evident in this sample how her "i" is written from bottom moving up, while the "p" is definitely arced from above moving down.


http://www.liveinternet.ru/photo/kusado/post17881947/
инок Николай

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
« Reply #173 on: January 25, 2012, 08:53:09 PM »

I can't recall where I found this link. Perhaps it already appeared somewhere else here on the Alexander Palace Forum, but this is a much clearer example of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna's handwriting (from a letter to her father in 1915), where she definitely writes the name as "Ortipo".

New to me! Thanks.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortipo
« Reply #174 on: January 25, 2012, 09:21:39 PM »

I just realized that it comes from this series of photographs, "Tsarskoe Selo, 100 Years Ago and Today"!

http://www.liveinternet.ru/photoalbumshow.php?albumid=106333&seriesid=1241051
инок Николай

Offline Victory_L

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Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortipo
« Reply #175 on: April 20, 2015, 03:13:27 AM »
Спасибо, Инок Николай! Вы дали ссылку на мою страницу. Там есть статья про царских любимцев (5 сообщений). Теперь удобно смотреть фотографии о семье Романовых и Царском Селе через 100 лет на сайте Пинтерест  , Если вам интересно какое-то место в моем городе, напишите, я сделаю фото и поставлю в альбоме.
 Google translation: Thank you, Inоk Nicholai! You gave a link to my page. There is an article about the king's favorites (5 messages). Now it is convenient to view photos of the Romanov family and Tsarskoye Selo after 100 years on the site Pinterest https://www.pinterest.com/lnghome/%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5-%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BE-%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4-%D0%BF%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD-%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81-%D0%B8-100-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%82-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B4/
 If you are interested in a place in my town, write, and I will put the photos in the album.