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Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
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Topic: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1 (Read 3086 times)
Reply #315
«
on:
April 20, 2008, 06:41:58 AM »
Lalee
Guest
Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
I personally don't believe that Ella coldly refused to listen to Alix's side of things, either. Ella tried to convince her sister that Rasputin was a terrible influence on probably numerous occasions, and I think she would have listened when Alix told her that the stories told about Rasputin were just evil scandals and made up by people who were jealous, yet Ella knew that they were true. Also, when Ania Vyrubova quotes that she watched "the breach between the sisters grow wider and deeper until their association was robbed of most of its old intimacy", I don't find myself believing that this is absolutely true. I think Ella and Alix were close, yet the only trouble there was, was their highly differing opinions on Rasputin. They seemed to correspond through the years and during the war, yet in 1916, when Ella made another attempt and what turned out to be the last time she and her sister would see each other again, this seemed to have been a terrible, agonising time and what would have had Alix pushed off the edge by her sister repeating the true nature of Rasputin. So therefore I think Ania's memoir there may have been a little exaggerated, perhaps, in my opinion, but I could be wrong. I wanted to add though, even after their tragic last meeting and when Alix accused her sister of being in the plot to murder Rasputin, I think there may have been a somewhat implied peace/reconciliation between the two sisters, when Alix had received coffee and chocolate from Ella while being transferred to Ekaterinburg with her husband and Maria, and which she seemed to enjoy and be thankful for.
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Reply #316
«
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April 20, 2008, 11:15:50 AM »
griffh
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Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
Just a word of caution, my spelling is horrid because I can't do spell check...
Below is a quote from page 7 that illustrates Ella's methods of attack as early as 1910 when a member of her clique in Moscow attacks Rasputin. I feel almost certain, now that have a clearer understanding of Guchkov and Rodzianko's methods, not to mention the Yusupovs, that the attack was co-ordinated in Moscow with the knowledge of Rodzianko. It fits the kind of cunning that was used by Russian statesmen. Below I have documented not only Ella's involvement in 1910 but the formation of Rodzianko's conspirators.
Though I don't want to deny some of Rasputin's less attractive characteristics, after reading Orlando Figes, "Natasha's Dance," and learning that even Tolstoy's household included a "religious fool," I don't find Rasputin's presence as that unusual. I mean if you take a Russian as liberal and progressive as Tolstoy who still included the presence of a "religious fool," in his household, it means to me that there is something characteristically Russian that is separate from political views or even religious issues. It seems to be that it was a comfort issue to have a "religious fool" close by.
Getting back to Ella, I think that she and many of her Moscow clique genuinely felt that Rasputin threatened the integrity of the Orthodox Church and she based her opposition to the man on his lack of convention and disregard of the structure and many of the cerimonies of the Church. We know from the Empress' correspondence and her ladies memoirs that she had a very practical sense of religion and felt that the heart and soul of religious devotion was outlined by St. John and his adomontion that good deeds were more important than all else.
By contrast, on a Scotish website about Freemasonry Ella is used as an example of anti-semeticism. It appears that she was very opposed to Count Witte because he was married to a Jewish wife. When I get home I will get the quote. Helen has also shared that there is a possiblity that Ella helped spread the "Protocol of Zion" which was a trashy and hostile invention claiming to have been of Jewish authorship about how the Jews were going to take over the world. My point here is that Ella appears to believe, like many religiously zealous people, that if something is evil it must be removed and she apparently defines evil as something she feels is opposed to Orthodoxy. The very sad part for zealots is that if they feel someone is protecting evil, that someone becomes evil too.
While it is true that Dimitri's conscience caught up with him after the murder of Rasputin, it clearly was not there the night of the murder or before as Dimitri would not have taken part in an event he later so regretting being a part of. I will quote the French Ambassadors conversation with Dimitri when he was willing to do anything to remove Rasputin. I find it perfectly compatable with Ella's religious convictions to feel that if she was fighting evil that of all places she would use the sacred atmosphere of her church to promote in secret her holy cause.
There is more information that I will share from the earlier pages of this thread, but in the meantime here is the Novosyolov and Rodzianko attack on Rasputin that involves one of Ella's Moscow clique and the St. Petersburg conspirators.
Quote from: griffh on May 21, 2007, 03:05:35 PM
In 1910 when Michael Novosyolov, an assistant professor at the Moscow Theological Seminary, editor of “The Religious- Philosphical Library,” and a member of the Grand Duchess Ella’s circle in Moscow, published a deleterious exposé on Rasputin. In true tabloid style, the series was worded in a way to enflame the righteous indignation of a stunned public and eagerly lapped up every word of the series which included, not only victim’s accounts of rape but also revealed for the first time, the fact that Rasputin had been investigated by the Tobolsk Consistory in 1907 for his connections to the highly controversial Khlyst sect.
Novosyolov’s series was immediately suppressed by the government while, at the same time, it jump-started the newly elected Speaker of the House of the Duma, M. V. Rodzianko, to start his own independent investigation of Rasputin. The outraged Rodzianko tells us:
The appearance in the Press of the Novoseloff pamphlet, together with the interpellation to the Government concerning its confiscation, placed the whole case of Gregory Rasputin’s activities and influence at Court on a documentary footing…
If before the interpellation I had entertained any doubts as to the expediency of presenting a report to the Emperor, my mind was now firmly made up, and I resolved to request an audience, in the course of which I determined that I would speak to the Emperor about Rasputin.
A whole month was spent in collecting evidence. I was assisted by Gutchkoff, Badmaieff, Rodionoff, and Count Sumarokoff, who was in touch with agents abroad. Prince Yusupov kept us informed of what was going on at the Palace. Badmaieff supplied us with data concerning Mgr. Hermogen and Iliodor and their connection with Rasputin.
[ref: M. V. Rodzianko, “The Reign of Rasputin, pp. 34-35.]
Rodzianko is using a slight form of dissimulation here by referring to one of his agent provocateurs as Count Sumarokoff. Count Sumarokov-Elston was one of Felix Yusupov’s titles. Rodzianko has already told us that the Sr. Prince Yusupov was his informant in the Palace, so Rodzianko might have tried to shield the rest of the Yusupov’s involvement by referring to Felix as Count Sumarokoff. The fact that Felix had first met Rasputin just before the Novoseloff pamphlet affair and that he was attending Oxford at the time of Rodzyanko’s was drafting his agents, suggests that Felix could have been one of those “agents abroad.” On the other hand the only other Counts Sumarokoff were Felix’s paternal Uncle and cousin Michael. Helen and Michael Sumarokoff lived abroad with their father, Count Sumarokoff so it is equally possible that Michael and his sister could have been the “agents abroad” that Rodzyanko was referring to. Perhaps there were other Sumarokoff relatives, but from what Felix says, it does not appear likely:
We had no real cousins on my mother’s side. The Koutouzoff, Cantacuzène, Ribeaupierre, and Stakhovitch families were distant relatives, and though we saw little of them we were on excellent terms with each other. It was the same with our first cousins, Helen and Michael Soumarokoff, who lived almost entirely abroad on account of their father’s bad health.
[ref: Prince Felix Youssoupoff, “Lost Splendor,” p. 39.]
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Reply #317
«
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April 20, 2008, 11:41:56 AM »
griffh
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Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
Quote from: griffh on April 20, 2008, 11:15:50 AM
Getting back to Ella, I think that she and many of her Moscow clique genuinely felt that Rasputin threatened the integrity of the Orthodox Church and she based her opposition to the man on his lack of convention and disregard of the structure and many of the cerimonies of the Church. We know from the Empress' correspondence and her ladies memoirs that she had a very practical sense of religion and felt that the heart and soul of religious devotion was outlined by St. John and his adomontion that good deeds were more important than all else.
I hope that second sentence is not confusing. What I should have written was:
We know from the Empress' correspondence and her ladies memoirs that Alix had a very practical sense of religion and felt that the heart and soul of religious devotion was outlined by St. John and his adomontion that good deeds were more important than all else.
«
Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 12:03:58 PM by griffh
»
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Reply #318
«
on:
April 20, 2008, 01:24:38 PM »
Helen
Knyaz
Posts: 721
Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
Quote from: griffh on April 20, 2008, 11:15:50 AM
Though I don't want to deny some of Rasputin's less attractive characteristics, after reading Orlando Figes, "Natasha's Dance," and learning that even Tolstoy's household included a "religious fool," I don't find Rasputin's presence as that unusual. I mean if you take a Russian as liberal and progressive as Tolstoy who still included the presence of a "religious fool," in his household, it means to me that there is something characteristically Russian that is separate from political views or even religious issues. It seems to be that it was a comfort issue to have a "religious fool" close by.
Wikipedia has an informative article on fools in Christ at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foolishness_for_Christ
.
By the way, the second illustration to this article is a picture of
The Soul of the People
by Michail Nesterov, the very artist and devout Orthodox Christian who Ella commissioned
"to paint several frescoes on relgious themes"
for her church/convent
" successfully combining Orthodoxy with the Art Nouveau style of the time, evoking the spirit of Russia in scenes that were at once poetic and delicate, mystical and spiritual"
. [Ref: Christipher Warwick, "Ella - Princess, Saint & Martyr", p. 168]
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Reply #319
«
on:
April 20, 2008, 01:38:38 PM »
Helen
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Posts: 721
Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
Quote from: griffh on April 20, 2008, 11:15:50 AM
By contrast, on a Scotish website about Freemasonry Ella is used as an example of anti-semeticism. It appears that she was very opposed to Count Witte because he was married to a Jewish wife. When I get home I will get the quote. Helen has also shared that there is a possiblity that Ella helped spread the "Protocol of Zion" which was a trashy and hostile invention claiming to have been of Jewish authorship about how the Jews were going to take over the world. My point here is that Ella appears to believe, like many religiously zealous people, that if something is evil it must be removed and she apparently defines evil as something she feels is opposed to Orthodoxy. The very sad part for zealots is that if they feel someone is protecting evil, that someone becomes evil too.
Griff is referring to a footnote in Christopher Warwick's biography of Ella:
"In time it would also be claimed that during the early years of the 20th century Ella helped publish and promote a revised version of the infamous 'Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion', a widely known work of alarmist fiction that claimed to expose a plan of 'World Conquest through World Jewish Government'."
[Ref: Christopher Warwick, "Ella - Princess, Saint & Martyr", footnote on p. 165]
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Reply #320
«
on:
April 20, 2008, 03:20:16 PM »
Janet Ashton
Graf
www.directarticle.org
Posts: 321
Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
Quote from: griffh on April 20, 2008, 11:15:50 AM
Just a word of caution, my spelling is horrid because I can't do spell check...
Below is a quote from page 7 that illustrates Ella's methods of attack as early as 1910 when a member of her clique in Moscow attacks Rasputin. I feel almost certain, now that have a clearer understanding of Guchkov and Rodzianko's methods, not to mention the Yusupovs, that the attack was co-ordinated in Moscow with the knowledge of Rodzianko. It fits the kind of cunning that was used by Russian statesmen. Below I have documented not only Ella's involvement in 1910 but the formation of Rodzianko's conspirators.
Though I don't want to deny some of Rasputin's less attractive characteristics, after reading Orlando Figes, "Natasha's Dance," and learning that even Tolstoy's household included a "religious fool," I don't find Rasputin's presence as that unusual. I mean if you take a Russian as liberal and progressive as Tolstoy who still included the presence of a "religious fool," in his household, it means to me that there is something characteristically Russian that is separate from political views or even religious issues. It seems to be that it was a comfort issue to have a "religious fool" close by.
Getting back to Ella, I think that she and many of her Moscow clique genuinely felt that Rasputin threatened the integrity of the Orthodox Church and she based her opposition to the man on his lack of convention and disregard of the structure and many of the cerimonies of the Church. We know from the Empress' correspondence and her ladies memoirs that she had a very practical sense of religion and felt that the heart and soul of religious devotion was outlined by St. John and his adomontion that good deeds were more important than all else.
By contrast, on a Scotish website about Freemasonry Ella is used as an example of anti-semeticism. It appears that she was very opposed to Count Witte because he was married to a Jewish wife. When I get home I will get the quote. Helen has also shared that there is a possiblity that Ella helped spread the "Protocol of Zion" which was a trashy and hostile invention claiming to have been of Jewish authorship about how the Jews were going to take over the world. My point here is that Ella appears to believe, like many religiously zealous people, that if something is evil it must be removed and she apparently defines evil as something she feels is opposed to Orthodoxy. The very sad part for zealots is that if they feel someone is protecting evil, that someone becomes evil too.
Ella may have been involved in the diseemination of this book, but I think Nicholas was too; certainly, his diaries indicate that he read it and found it credible, at least after 1917. I am not sure that I am making any particular point in saying this, but I don't think it should be overlooked. It is easy for those sympathetic to Nicholas and Alexandra to point to the inconsistencies and vagueries of their opponents - which certainly existed - but these can't in themselves always be taken a sign that N and A were always following a coherant line of thought which we should defend. Please don't take this as an indicattion that I necessraily disagree or agree with anything you say or am assuming anything about your position, but I though the point worth making.....
Quote from: griffh on April 20, 2008, 11:15:50 AM
While it is true that Dimitri's conscience caught up with him after the murder of Rasputin, it clearly was not there the night of the murder or before as Dimitri would not have taken part in an event he later so regretting being a part of. I will quote the French Ambassadors conversation with Dimitri when he was willing to do anything to remove Rasputin. I find it perfectly compatable with Ella's religious convictions to feel that if she was fighting evil that of all places she would use the sacred atmosphere of her church to promote in secret her holy cause.
This is an interesting and insightful point.
P.S. I also don't use a spell check...:-)
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Reply #321
«
on:
April 20, 2008, 04:20:18 PM »
Helen
Knyaz
Posts: 721
Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
Quote from: Ferah on April 20, 2008, 06:41:58 AM
So therefore I think Ania's memoir there may have been a little exaggerated, perhaps, in my opinion, but I could be wrong.
Ferah, I agree that Anna's memories may indeed not be entirely accurate, and this was exactly why I wondered whether there are any other sources confirming that Ella refused to listen. Perhaps Ella did listen to Alix, but I'm not sure she listened with an open mind. If she had, wouldn't she have known that some of the stories about Rasputin were indeed true, but others were not, and that one of the originators of many false legends about the Court and Rasputin was Mlle. Tutcheff, a person from Ella's own circle of friends and acquaintances?
Quote from: griffh on April 20, 2008, 11:15:50 AM
Getting back to Ella, I think that she and many of her Moscow clique genuinely felt that Rasputin threatened the integrity of the Orthodox Church and she based her opposition to the man on his lack of convention and disregard of the structure and many of the ceremonies of the Church. We know from the Empress' correspondence and her ladies memoirs that she had a very practical sense of religion and felt that the heart and soul of religious devotion was outlined by St. John and his adomontion that good deeds were more important than all else.
I don't think Alix and Ella differed that much in having a 'practical' sense of religion. After all, Ella's convent with its hospital and pharmacy was very practical too. But it's true that Ella hammered away on the importance of Nicholas and Alix not letting themselves be influenced by people who might take them from the 'true Orthodox Church', whereas Alix was interested in the writings of Jakob Böhme, a German Christian mystic whose emphasis on "faith and self-awareness rather than strict adherence to dogma or scripture" was considered controversial.
I'm no expert on Boehme, but Janet Ashton has written a wonderful article about Alix's religious outlook in which Boehme is also discussed:
"God in All Things: The Religious Outlook of Russia’s Last Empress"
(
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/godinallthings.html
).
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Reply #322
«
on:
April 20, 2008, 06:02:23 PM »
griffh
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Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
Oh I want to be apart of this discussion so badly but I am away from my own computer and I have other committments but it is so interesting. I love comparing and weighing our ideas and find it to helpful inorder to gain a more balanced and fairer view....thanks Janet and Helen and everyone.
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Reply #323
«
on:
April 20, 2008, 07:04:07 PM »
griffh
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Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
I was able to return to this computer after some duties that took me away that I thought would last longer. I think the point about Ella having practical views of religious duty certainly does make a good point. Her Convent was so closely modeled on the Protestant nursing reform model of the earlier part of the nineteenth century that without Nicholas' intervention the Holy Synod would have never allowed it's existence or Ella's ordination as Abbess. At the same time that does not explain away Ella's involvement in the removal of Rasputin.
I really loved Helen's remarks about Mlle. Tutcheff and hope to follow up on that topic. The thing that I find unfortunate that Ella did not keep her views about Rasputin or Alix to herself, nor did she continue her efforts to find a solution privately within the family. Instead she used her power and position to spear-head a group of political and religious opponents against Rasputin in order to force her sister to break ties with him.
I believe Warwick speaks of this group and how Ella spirited them on assuring them that she knew her sister all to well, or something of the kind. Another current biographer of Ella's mentions her as the motivator of her own clique so clearly Ella did not take a passive role in trying to uproot Rasputin nor was it something that simply appeared after the beginning of the war. Ella's clique in Moscow was organized in 1910 around the same time that Rodzianko was putting together his group of political opponents of Rasputin in St. Petersburg. It is clear that both groups were aware of eachother's efforts as the link was the Yusupov family who were deeply involved in Rodzianko's group while Ziniada Yusupov and Felix were closely connected to Ella and certainly the two women must have communicated with each other.
I also greatly enjoyed Janet's point about the tendency to attack the inconsistencies of Nicholas and Alexandra's enemies in an attempt to give credibility to the Imperial couple. I think that I have certainly been guilty of this more often than not.
I love Michail Nesterov's work and I believe that he also designed Ella' habit and I think he may also have designed some of the costumes for the famous 1903 Court Fancy Dress Ball held twice in St. Petersburg, but I may be mistaken. Well I am being called away again.....
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Reply #324
«
on:
April 21, 2008, 06:59:32 AM »
Lalee
Guest
Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
Quote from: Helen on April 20, 2008, 04:20:18 PM
Quote from: Ferah on April 20, 2008, 06:41:58 AM
So therefore I think Ania's memoir there may have been a little exaggerated, perhaps, in my opinion, but I could be wrong.
Ferah, I agree that Anna's memories may indeed not be entirely accurate, and this was exactly why I wondered whether there are any other sources confirming that Ella refused to listen. Perhaps Ella did listen to Alix, but I'm not sure she listened with an open mind. If she had, wouldn't she have known that some of the stories about Rasputin were indeed true, but others were not, and that one of the originators of many false legends about the Court and Rasputin was Mlle. Tutcheff, a person from Ella's own circle of friends and acquaintances?
I agree with you, Helen. I think that Ella and Alix did listen to each other, and I'm sure Ella tried to understand her sister's point of view. Their eldest sister Victoria said this, yet that Ella couldn't be able to completely understand Alix's anguish because she wasn't a mother herself. I only think that in the end (referring to the attemp in 1916) did Alix have enough and broke off the conversation, ordering for a car to arrive to take Ella back home. I think Alix thought she knew best where as Ella may have been more calm and understanding about things. Yet, as much as the Rasputin situation pretty much caused disaster for things, I do believe that in the end the two sisters did have affection for each other.
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Reply #325
«
on:
April 21, 2008, 07:28:55 AM »
matushka
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Voskresenie Hristovo videvshe
Posts: 559
Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
I do not think that the mention of "count Soumarokov" instead of count Youssupov indicate something. The title Soumarokov was currently used for Felix's father and Felix himself. I found an example in the repport of Valentina Gordeeva, tresorier of the MArthe and Maria's convent for the year 1910. She wrote that "the count F. F. Soumarokov-Elston cover the half of the depenses for the house of women ill with tuberculosis".
Griff, here is a link where I mention all the dates I found in the sources I had by hand for the meetings of the IF with Rasputin. The sources are very simple: Nicolas'diary; N and A's letters; OTMA's diaries and letters. Perhaps there were more.
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,9643.45.html
A question. In Petersbourg, Rodzianko, Goutchkov and so on against Rasputin. In Moscow, the Ella's "clique". But what about the motivations? Are they the same? As far as I understand, Rodzianko and co's purpose was to change the russian politic life: against the traditionnal autocratic way of government, they thought it was obsolete. The empress, with her autocratic conception of ruling was an ennemy, she was to eliminate (politically speaking). And Rasputin was used to destabilize the system. Am I correct? That makes sense for me, that is a good motivation. Same thing with Youssoupov and some of the grand-ducs. But what about Ella and her "clique"? Were there motivations the same? Were they differents? If yes, so witch? Religious questions? I am not sure that all people around Ella were so deeply religious as she was, I can not say that Felix was a "good orthodox guy"... How understand Olga Alexandrovna's remark saying that Ella and MF were the only person really thinking about "Nicky"'s interests in that context?
What about Felix, for example. Was this young man really thinking that Rasputin was
per se
bad for Russia? Was he a marionet in some others hands? He describes his gest as patriotic. Ella agrees with that. In his letters of pre-revolution period he show how he is against the system, against his emperor. Was it political conviction? Ella recognize the new governement very quickly. For what reason, about you all? Political conviction? Desire to save her activities, to save her place in the society when her sister was under arrest?
A last question, about this letter of the Tsar, one of the last before the revolution. The children, he said, need a rest after their illness. The doctor advice him the children could stay in the Crimea for a while. What a good occasion for you to have a rest, he added. I never paid attention to this. But in this context of plot, of danger, when a large part of the family members want Alix back from Petrograd, is that not a delicate tentative to send her far away, far away from danger, but also from power?
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Reply #326
«
on:
April 21, 2008, 07:36:23 AM »
matushka
Knyaz
Voskresenie Hristovo videvshe
Posts: 559
Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
I wrote that in an other thread about Ella and Rasputin, but perhaps it has place here also. Something in common with Helen's interesting remark about Ella and "official orthodoxy".
Of course one reason for Alix trusting Rasputin was that he really cure her child. But it came only with time. The first reason is a spiritual one. AF had always search such people, she had mister Philip, she had plenty of experiences, more or less strange people around her. And that long time before Alexis was born and his illness discovered. That should not be forgotten. Rasputin was also for her a spiritual man, who have a lot to relate about saint places, about Russia, has his own spiritual ideas, is able to give some kind of spiritual advice, to calm her and even NII, as he wrote about not only 1 time in his diary. Rasputin was not only a healer, he was a spiritual friend.
All is question of quality. I personly read some spiritual Rasputin's texts, notes, thoughts. Well, it looks like spiritual things, but is very confused, unclear, an embroglio of liturgical, biblical reminiscence mixed in an own sauce, with some kind of peasant wisdom. Quite far from traditional orthodoxy. And here is the big difference with Ella. She search spiritualy and spiritual guides in the church, at really startsy, the startsy of Optina, of Zossimova Pustin, famous priests, know for their spiritual life. As she know already very well, from the "theory" and for her practice what was really orthodoxy, orthodox spiritual life, Ella could not not be afraid with the tendances of her sister. In my opinion, it was not only a patriotic question for her (of course, it was also), but a spiritual one also. It was always for me a question, why and how AF, who read the Fathers of the Church, who attended church services went almost her entire life near the real russian sainthood not seing it...
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Reply #327
«
on:
April 21, 2008, 05:47:57 PM »
griffh
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Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
This discussion has been so helpful to me in so many ways.
I have spent the day re-reading both Christopher Warwick and Hugo Mager's recent work on Ella and I have complied a number of quotations from each book that I will share and that do not indicate a very accurate knowledge of the Empress' views which are clearly stated in her Correspondence.
While the research in the Warwick book is outstanding and really brings to life Ella in the earlier period of Nicky and Alix' reign, even in this fine book, Ella becomes less visible during World War One. It is this part of the book that relies on information that is not accurate such as the circumstances surrounding the elder Prince Yusupov's termination as Governor-General of Moscow. Those familiar with this thread know that Yusupov was removed from his office because he walked away from his responsibilites and hid out in St. Petersburg with his wife until his absence cause Nicholas to retire him. We also know that Alexandra, in direct contradiction of Warwick and Mager, felt that Yusupov should return to his office and stop hiding out in St. Petersburg.
I continue to appreciate Janet's remark about abusing the enemy in an attempt to justify the friend. Both Warwick and Mager, and I are guilty of such poor logic. I will quote passages from the work of both men.
Quote from: matushka on April 21, 2008, 07:28:55 AM
I do not think that the mention of "count Soumarokov" instead of count Youssupov indicate something. The title Soumarokov was currently used for Felix's father and Felix himself. I found an example in the repport of Valentina Gordeeva, tresorier of the MArthe and Maria's convent for the year 1910. She wrote that "the count F. F. Soumarokov-Elston cover the half of the depenses for the house of women ill with tuberculosis".
Matushka that is the very point I am trying to make. Just as you said, the only possible "Count Soumarokov's" that Rodzianko could be referring to was Felix junior. Rodzianko had already identified Felix senior as his "palace informant." By using the title Count Soumarokov for Felix, Rodzianko was hiding Felix' indentity, otherwise he could just as easily said Prince Felix Yusupov the younger. But if Rodzianko had identified Felix openly, all of us would have naturally asked the question about Felix' participation at such an early date, six years before he is supposed to have been involved.
Quote from: matushka on April 21, 2008, 07:28:55 AM
Griff, here is a link where I mention all the dates I found in the sources I had by hand for the meetings of the IF with Rasputin. The sources are very simple: Nicolas'diary; N and A's letters; OTMA's diaries and letters. Perhaps there were more.
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,9643.45.html
Hey thanks so very much Matushka!! I hope to address your other fine questions with some of the research I did today. This is such a great discussion.
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Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 05:54:47 PM by griffh
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April 21, 2008, 06:20:34 PM »
Helen
Knyaz
Posts: 721
Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
Quote from: griffh on April 20, 2008, 11:15:50 AM
Getting back to Ella, I think that she and many of her Moscow clique genuinely felt that Rasputin threatened the integrity of the Orthodox Church and she based her opposition to the man on his lack of convention and disregard of the structure and many of the ceremonies of the Church.
Perhaps Ella's approach says more about Ella and her own personal needs and fears than about Rasputin. I may be totally wrong, but I would not be surprised if the reason why Ella put such emphasis on these real or perceived shortcomings of Rasputin was that she herself had a need for conventions, the structure and ceremonies of the Church. Did they give her a sense of security, something to hold on to? Perhaps. I don't know. Alix's need for conventions and structure imposed by a Church hierarchy and her spiritual needs seem to have been different.
Matushka, you have brought up some interesting points. I agree that Ella's crusade against Rasputin probably was not only about patriotism/politics but also about spirituality. I regret to say that, in my opinion, a spiritual aspect makes her crusade only more controversial from an ethical point of view. Although.. her campaign againt Rasputin and Alix may have been part of Ella's own spiritual learning curve.
Rasputin's texts were perhaps "quite far from traditional Orthodoxy" and not well structured or well worded, but his scribbles were not at all representative of the works Alix read. Alix already read many philosophical and theological works during her Darmstadt years and continued to do so in Russia: published works that discussed ideas that were more or less mainstream among Christians of various traditions. As Janet Ashton wrote in her article, Jakob Boehme, Saint John of the Ladder and Auguste Jundt were among the authors she read. Boehme's writings are still studied by modern theologians and are considered interesting because they are part of a larger collection of texts that may function as 'bridges' between various spiritual traditions and religions. This aspect of Boehme's work must have appealed to Alix, as "
the entire thrust of her thinking was to find universal expressions of faith, the similarity rather than differences between religions.
" [Ref: Janet Ashton, "God in All Things: The Religious Outlook of Russia’s Last Empress"] I think such a search requires the freedom to explore both mainstream traditions and more controversial paths and is incompatible with any restrictions imposed to the 'search area' . Ella's crusade seems to suggest that she not only did "not completely understand Alix's anguish because she wasn't a mother herself", as Victoria said, but didn't understand Alix's spiritual search either.
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Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 06:31:12 PM by Helen
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Reply #329
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April 22, 2008, 05:40:44 AM »
Janet Ashton
Graf
www.directarticle.org
Posts: 321
Re: Re: The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #1
Quote from: Helen on April 20, 2008, 04:20:18 PM
I'm no expert on Boehme, but Janet Ashton has written a wonderful article about Alix's religious outlook in which Boehme is also discussed:
"God in All Things: The Religious Outlook of Russia’s Last Empress"
(
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/godinallthings.html
).
Thanks for the compliment!
The article is indeed up on this site, because I sent the text to Bob a couple of years ago, but the full published version, complete with pics etc, is actually here: -
http://www.bl.uk/eblj/2006articles/article4.html
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