Author Topic: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?  (Read 45571 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JM

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 406
    • View Profile
Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« on: March 04, 2004, 01:07:35 PM »
I recently read a book that poses a very interesting question. Did Marie engage in some inapropriate conduct with a member of the guard in Ekaterinburg? I learned some basic details of what MIGHT have happend. He smuggled in some cake for her birthday and they "disappeared" for some time. That is until they were discovered. Does anybody know anything about this?

Offline Sarai

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 999
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2004, 01:45:41 PM »
I am just curious to know what book is it that you read? Thanks!

Offline Sarai

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 999
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2004, 02:13:48 PM »
Dear Penny,
I would be interested in learning more about your research and conclusions with regards to this topic, as I'm sure Jmentanko would be as well. I did a Google search on "Ivan Skorokhodov" after I posted my question here to see if I could find out anything more about this. The only reference to him I found was in a review of your book (http://www.diana.co.uk/entertainment/books/articles/7717337?source=Evening%20Standard). The review also states that your book discusses G.D. Olga having had a possible "encounter" as well. I have not read your book, but from what I read in this review these all sound like interesting points. Would you please elaborate a little on this topic for those of us who haven't read the book - as far as your research and conclusions go. Thank you for your time.

Offline nerdycool

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 675
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2004, 05:52:10 PM »
I too, would be interested in hearing about this! Please post away!

Offline Janet_W.

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1888
  • ...And no one's grief has ever passed you by...
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2004, 09:24:46 PM »
I have read the book by Mr. King and Ms. Wilson--and yes, the authors do discuss the tendency of the girls to make friends with their guards.  Olga, however, seems to have been immune to this type of activity; according to the book, the other three girls--even regal Tatiana!--did encourage flirtations with their Ekaterinberg guards, and Marie in particular seems to have been involved in some sort of tryst. This would be understandable as she had been at Ekaterinberg longer than "OTA" and always had been known for being something of a flirt, as well as wanting--more than her sisters--to marry and have many children.  However, the book also hints at some very bad experiences encountered by "OTA" during the boat portion of their trip to Ekaterinberg.  Perhaps they were only badly scared or cruelly interogated; the information from Gibbes, their tutor, mentions that he heard them screaming. At any rate, it was Olga--to several observers, she seemed to be more in despair than the others--who kept herself apart. This could very well be due to the fact that she had already been involved in two romances, one which ended when the gentleman in question--a Standart officer--married in 1914, the other of which was interrupted by the war or her family's imprisonment. At any rate, regarding "TMA," it's important to remember that they were healthy young women, kept--for the most part--from developing typical relationships with the opposite sex, and that now their hopes for marriage and children were at a standstill.  As explained in the King and Wilson book, not all of the guards were crude and despicable brutes, and in fact some of them were attractive and fairly sympathetic. Marie in particular seemed rather love-starved. She was the family "angel"--her father used to say he was always glad to see her act a bit naughty, because otherwise her angel's wings would grow too much--but Marie also had been an object of fun at times due to her earlier clumsiness and tendency towards plumpness.  So Marie's "neediness," plus her sweet and fairly uncomplicated nature--not to mention her exceptional beauty--must have made her seem particularly desirable to the young guards.

Offline Sarai

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 999
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2004, 08:19:51 AM »
Penny,
Thank you for your explanation and elaboration on this fascinating subject. I agree that researching the guards is important work, as they had the closest contact with the family during their last days, and their testimony - if truthful - is very valuable. These were men who were able to witness the family going about their daily business and, in what is most interesting to me, were able to observe their behavior as an ordinary family in a comparatively ordinary house, as opposed to an environment such as a luxurious palace where they were powerful rulers. They witnessed firsthand how they adapted to their rather middle class surroundings and way of life, something that they had never experienced in their privileged lives. I have often wondered if these men told their own families intriguing stories of their days guarding the Imperial family, stories which may have been passed on from one generation to the next and are still known in their families today. Of course, it would be difficult to track down these individuals, assuming they even had stories to tell, but if so what interesting knowledge they may have to share!

Offline BobAtchison

  • Moderator
  • Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
    • View Profile
    • The Alexander Palace
Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2004, 10:41:16 AM »
Personally, I find this discussion somewhat repugnant.  That said - whatever the 'truth is' I am in favor of it being revealed.

The family was very organized in its attempt to learn what was going on, to try and build friendships among the guards for obvious reasons.  The girls - specifically Marie - are mentioned as having done this.  Obviously, the guards would be likely to respond to them.

Also, the girls were organized to protect the valuables.  As we one one of them always stayed with the crates/cases of valuables and they were never left alone.  They would even sit on them to protect them.

So some of the guards said later they had flirtations with them.  As you say it wasn't sexual so all it was was looks and smiles and the like.  Penny, I think too much is being made out of this, but I am glad you are cautioning us not to go too far with it.


Offline JM

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 406
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2004, 04:09:34 PM »
This is very interesting. It sheds a new light on their imprisonment in Ekaterinburg. I think it's a comforting thought to think that some of the Grand Duchesses were able to make friends with their guards. Perhaps life wasn't as bad as we have believed. Thanks for the information.

Janet Whitcomb

  • Guest
Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2004, 01:37:18 PM »
Ms. Wilson, thank you so much for your detailed replies to my own statement and the statements of other respondents.  Although I can understand that many people might find an interest in this particular subject repugnant or uncomfortable, I think it is important.  Hostage/prisoner situations are becoming more and more familiar to us, and anyone from a newspaper heiress to a passenger on a plane or even someone working in a shop can become embroiled in a hostage situation that might last less than an hour or might continue for days, weeks, months, or years.  In the case of "OTMA," I am interested because (1) We have four different personalities, but with a common upbringing and (2) so much of the OTMA information shows (or purports) them to be fairly uncomplicated young women . . . and yet here was a very complicated situation indeed.  The contrast from a sequestered, protected existence to one in which very little protected them, save their parents and servants and their own upbringing, is also compelling.  In one of the generally omited scenes from the film of "Nicholas and Alexandra"--the source of my initial interest, back in 1972!--Tatiana is the daughter who briefly "acts out" her own tension with regards to the imprisonment. But I have always felt that the screenwriter got it wrong and that if any member of OTMA would have acted out, it probably would have been Marie.  She was not only a died-in-the-wool romantic, but also the least confident of the daughters, which sets her up for being more vulnerable to outside attentions.   Your added information--in three parts, thank you again--makes the situation the Romanovs faced seem all the more real to me, and less iconic. So, while I appreciate the iconic status of the Romanovs, I admit that I am most interested in their human side. I feel the same way about Anne Frank, who of course is a powerful symbol of the consequences of anti-Semitism, but also can (and should) be appreciated as a young girl--bright, talented, and with much promise, but also (as is the case with us all) very much a human being with both strengths and weaknesses.  
Most of all, I am gratified to know that life at Ekaterinberg for OTMA was not 100% onerous. Bad enough that we know of their horrific deaths. But if we also can be reasonably sure that OTMA--or at least TMA--found some diversions, some hope . . . and that they maintained, to at least some degree, their youthful spirits . . . I personally find that comforting.  There is so much evil in the world, and we know that many young people are being trained and used for that evil.  But if these young people have the opporutnity to see beyond the propaganda they are stuffed with, and have a chance to realize that their violent actions are not for the ultimate good of anyone, and in fact destroy much of what is innocent and right  . . . well, maybe our world has a chance afterall.
By the way, I will admit that upon first reading your book and the details of their imprisonment--especially the voyage from Toblosk to Ekaterinberg--I was initially in a state of some shock, to be followed by a great deal of depression; the girls are admittedly tremendous icons. But, after several days of working through my emotions, I became more reconciled to the information, and I am grateful to you and Mr. King for your research and integrity in reporting this research.

Offline BobAtchison

  • Moderator
  • Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
    • View Profile
    • The Alexander Palace
Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2004, 03:02:43 PM »
I would like to say that I, for one, do not believe the Grand Duchesses were raped or assaulted in any sexual way during their exile.  Speculation, in my view, along these lines is not justified by the facts.  I appreciate Penny and Greg's work in revealing many new details but innuendos like these could diminish otherwise serious scholarship.  I have been assured by Greg and Penny that they don't believe there were rapes or sexual assaults - so I assume that speculations along these lines are the conclusions of the readers rather than the authors.

I cannot express how distasteful I find commenting on this subject and I am doing so only because I feel an obligation to do so. My apologies if anyone is offended by what I have written here.

Bob

Offline jackie3

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 174
  • "...such pig and filth!" - GD Anastasia N.
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2004, 03:35:11 PM »
Bob, I totally agree with you and it is only the "revelations" concerning the Grand Duchesses and what may/may not have happened to them that has stopped me from getting Greg and Penny's seemingly heavily researched book.

I love history as much as anyone but there are some things I'd just rather not know or even care to think about. The brutality of their murder in that House by those thugs and what was done with their bodies and the decades of cover-up (by the Soviet Govt.) and bragging (on the part of many of the murderers) are already etched endelibly on my brain. I don't to have to picture even more especially to innocent children (and in many ways Olga and Tatiana were still children though technically adult).

Offline JM

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 406
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2004, 05:34:53 PM »
I don't know where this whole discussion of "rape" and/or "assault" came in. I for one never mentioned it. I also find it distasteful. Without having satisfactory evidence such an accusation is sickening.

Offline BobAtchison

  • Moderator
  • Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
    • View Profile
    • The Alexander Palace
Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2004, 05:59:37 PM »
Penny:

I don't know how you have have it both ways - 'something happened' with the obvious inference that it was sexual in nature and at the same time to say it didn't take place.

That said - you are very clear -  I believe you when you say there is no evidence that a rape took place so that's that.  I just hope all this prurient speculation stops as it should.

If 'something' had happened I am sure Gibbs or Gilliard would have been sure to say something and their parents would have found out as well.  It's just not there.

Bob


Offline masha

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2004, 08:20:37 PM »
Please forgive me, as I intend no offense but remember - they are saints now, in the eyes of millions of Orthodox Christians. So for those who believe in God, their suffering is over and all we must do in moments of sadness, anger, horror and any other form of temptation when we are reminded of their imprisonment, is to ask them as intersessors to God for their forgivenes & to prayer for us - that is all.
Masha

Offline AnnK

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Romanov Scholar, Faberge Lover
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2004, 07:57:33 PM »
Hello All,

I too have read Greg & Penny's book. I take no indignities nor issue by the circumstances relayed regarding Marie and the possibility regarding a "compromising" event. Rather it fit in with all that I have read over many years of the naivete and simpleness that Marie has been described with as she grew.

While the thought of additional horrible events (re: Rus) occuring to what were essentially innocent teenagers and young women is unpalatable, they were human beings - and reacted as such (re: friendliness to guards). And so were their captors (re: difference in reactions to the Family).  I do not condone what was done to the Imperial Family, nor do I look to besmirch their memory...but viewing history thru many lens' is bound to reveal many things. I am not adverse to revelations when researched...and ultimately must make up my own mind which to believe as I continue my study of the Romanovs.

Regards, Ann