Author Topic: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3  (Read 45461 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tsarina_Liz

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 569
  • Existence is not a predicate.  - Kant
    • View Profile
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #285 on: February 07, 2006, 06:46:02 PM »
Quote
"If AN had survived...."
"If AN had gotten raped..."
"If AN had taken a cart trip..."
"If AN...."

"You wouldn't be able to do these awful things to me if I weren't still in this chair..."
"but ya are, Blanche, ya ARE in the wheel chair...ya ARE in that wheel chair..."


Freaky how relevant that is, FA.   ;)  
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #286 on: February 07, 2006, 07:02:56 PM »
Annie's post which started this thead:

Quote
Let's use this thread to discuss her story of her alleged 'rescue' and life before jumping into the canal.

She claims she was rescued by Alexander Tchiakovsky, but as we've discussed in other threads, there is no evidence he existed. We have also discussed how the name was probably invented, either because of its popularity, or its closeness to Polish names she knew, if she was FS.

My son and I were discussing her 'journey' tonight, and how unlikely it was she'd have survived the trip from Ekaterinburg to Bucharest by cart, off the beaten path. She would have been horribly injured and the chances of her living with no medical care for that long are rare. Add to this that by some accounts she'd have been pregnant, I can't believe the baby would have survived even if she did.

We did a map check to see just how far it was, and the distance from Ekaterinburg to Romania was about 2,800 miles!  :o  

That's almost as far as it is from Washington, DC, to LA! Consider too that there are various types of terrain, mountains, swamps, rivers, plains, more mountains in Romania! All this time staying off the beaten path to avoid the armies, all with hardly any food and no medicine or bandages. This alone is so unrealistic.

I don't want to make anyone angry, but would someone please explain how this was possible? Imagine how long this trip by cart would have taken under the best conditions, with healthy people and good weather. They'd never have made Moscow by winter! Can someone do the math as to how many miles they'd have had to cover each day and how long it would have taken them to reach Romania?

These are things I wanted to bring up, but any posts on any aspect of AA's story and how they do or do not add up are welcome for discussion!


Annie:
>>These are things I wanted to bring up, but any posts on any aspect of AA's story and how they do or do not add up are welcome for discussion!<<

Without the wheel chair, Blanche and whats-her-name,  I think we're sticking pretty close to what Annie wanted us to discuss which was Anna Anderson's story.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #287 on: February 07, 2006, 08:23:14 PM »
"Without the wheel chair, Blanche and whats-her-name,..."

Her name is Jane... "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" is the movie...sadly Bear,you are deprived for not having seen one of the genuine great classic films of recent times...

Offline etonexile

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1231
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #288 on: February 07, 2006, 08:49:02 PM »
Quote
"Without the wheel chair, Blanche and whats-her-name,..."

 Her name is Jane... "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" is the movie...sadly Bear,you are deprived for not having seen one of the genuine great classic films of recent times...


No,Tedders....You needn't fear the covered dishes from "Old Pete" the gardener....It's only chicken....erm...yes... ::)

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #289 on: February 08, 2006, 09:23:32 AM »
Again, jumping to conclusions.

Quote
"Without the wheel chair, Blanche and whats-her-name,..."

 Her name is Jane... "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" is the movie...sadly Bear,you are deprived for not having seen one of the genuine great classic films of recent times...



Never liked that movie.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #290 on: February 08, 2006, 09:29:37 AM »
Quote

But how long did said screaming go on for?



Missed this question of MMs.

Elisabeth tell us that according to Gibbes "it went on for most of the night":

Quote

FOTR implies it went on for most of the night. But I don't think we can take their word for it. The authors clearly made a big mistake in stating repeatedly that Volkov like Gibbes discussed this incident in his memoirs. In fact he did not. He said the opposite: that the guards "
the grand duchesses in peace."  That means Gibbes is the only witness to say this incident ever occurred. Volkov, Buxhoeveden, and Gilliard don't mention it. So how do we know that it even happened? Simple, we don't.

And on further thought it seems likely to me that if there was any screaming, it was earlier on in the evening or afternoon, when the soldiers started firing their weapons into the air and setting off grenades in the water. Maybe some of the women (not necessarily even the grand duchesses) were startled and cried out. Gibbes, in recalling the trip on the Rus years later, simply got his memories mixed up. After all, he was writing his recollections after the Ekaterinburg murders. In retrospect everything that went on with the Bolsheviks must have seemed even worse to him than it actually was at the time.

At any rate I would say this entire section of FOTR is highly suspect because the authors made the mistake with Volkov. Not only that, but they don't even cite Gibbes' recollections of the incident in full.  They only quote snippets of it. So how can we even know what he meant? The quotes might have been taken out of context.


Quote
Gibbes, in recalling the trip on the Rus years later, simply got his memories mixed up


If he simply got his memories mixed up,  what other night could he have mixed up with the night on the Russ?


AGBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #291 on: February 08, 2006, 09:35:47 AM »
Re: screaming.

We don't actually even KNOW there was screaming going on at all. Please go read the rape thread over in Final chapter where this has been analysed to death. The one single and ONLY reference to "screams" comes from George Gibbes' account of  what Sidney Gibbes "said" decades after the fact. Some facts about the Rus voyage:

Sokolov deposed all surviving passengers quite literally for days. There is NO mention of any mistreatment of the grand duchesses or "screaming".  

Gilliard, Volkov and Buxhoeveden all wrote books soon thereafter (Bux wrote 2).  In ALL of their first hand accounts, there is NO mention of screaming or mistreatments of the GDs. Volkov's exact words are that Rodionov "left the Grand Duchesses in peace."

Most importantly, when George Gibbes wrote "House of Special Purpose" there is NO MENTION of screaming, or even mistreatement on the "Rus". The ONLY mention there is about Alexei's cabin being locked but the girls' cabins open.

I will bring over all the exact text for you to read yourselves...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #292 on: February 08, 2006, 09:37:19 AM »
Here are the complete texts of the various other accounts, so judge for yourselves:

Gilliard:
"Monday May 20th - At half-past eleven we left the house and went on board the Russ.  She is the boat which brought us with the Czar and Czarina eight months ago.  Baroness Buxhoeveden has been granted permission to rejoin us.  We left Tobolsk at five o'clock.  Commisar Rodionov has shut Alexei Nicholaievich in his cabin with Nagorny.  We protested: the child is ill and the doctor ought to have access to him at any time.
"Wednesday May 22nd - We reached Tiumen this morning."

Buxhoeveden (The Life and Tragedy...):
"...I only joined them on the Russ.  Rodionov, Khokhraikov and their men formed our escort. ... The Grand Duchesses were not allowed to shut the doors of their cabins. Guards were posted everywhere, even inside the dressing-rooms, whence we dislodged them with difficulty.  When we were on deck, a man sat at the end of our benches and we were obliged to speak very loudly in Russian, so that the guard might be able to follow the conversation.  It was fine weather, so the Cesarevich was able tosit out during the day in a wheelchair. At night, Rodionov locked him up in his cabin, much to the distress of Nogorny, who continually had violent altercations with Rodionov.  When the ship left the landing the men for some unknown reason fired volleys with their machine guns, but Khokhriakov, who was more considerate than Rodionov, came to the sick boy to tell him not to be frightened.  There was a delay at Tuimen, where the party arrived the next day."

Buxhoeveden ("Left Behind")
"We started our journey with the utmost foreboding. We were all shipped on the Russ, the boat on which the Imperial Family had come to Tobolsk.  Rodionov had sentinels posted everywhere, even at the doors of the lavatories, and ordered all of us ladies to leave our cabin doors open all night. No one undressed.  The little Caesarevich was locked into the cabin he occupied with the sailor-attendent Nagorny, for fear, I suppose that he should "swim away". A sharp watch was kept over us all, and we were told to speak Russian only and this very distinctly, in order that the men detailed to be our personal guards should understand what was said.  The rest of the soldiers did not come near us and spent the day on their part of the deck, singing and playing the accordion.  Some had fine voices, and it carried us back to happier days, and the concerts for the wounded soldiers in the hospitals, when they sang the "Volga Boatmen's Song" and "Stenka Rasin".
    By order of Rodionov everything that was in the Governor's and Kornilov houses, whether belonging to the Imperial Family or not, was put on board the ship.  Rows of the most garish bedroom crockery stood on deck, coming from no one knew where.  Olga Nicholaievna was in dispair when she saw the archbishop's carriage and horse, which he had lent to take the Cesarevich to the boat, which had also been taken on board.  "But he will need it.  It is not ours, please tell them" she said.  I assured her my protestations would not help.  We were prisoners and had to be passive.  A lot of firing was going on, the soldiers shooting at harmless wild ducks and anything else they fancied with their machine guns.
    After a long day and night on the boat we arived at Tiumen."

Volkov:
"The boat left at two o'clock and steered in the direction of Tyumen. The conduct of the soldiers during the voyage was abominable. Absolutely no discipline. They fired gunshots and even threw grenades, without rhyme or reason, at birds, up in the air...It was a savage orgy.  
 
Rodianov shut up the Tsarevich in his cabin with the attendant Nagorny, leaving the grand duchesses in peace. Nagorny always contradicted Rodianov and quarrelled with him."

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #293 on: February 08, 2006, 09:40:48 AM »
Quote
Elisabeth tell us that "it went on for most of the night":


Not correct Bear. Elisabeth tells us NOTHING of the sort. She says the the authors of FOTR "suggest" it went on for most of the night, but that there is no genuine evidence to support the allegation.

and you wonder 'why' people call you to task for your statements?

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #294 on: February 08, 2006, 09:55:57 AM »
Quote

Not correct Bear. Elisabeth tells us NOTHING of the sort. She says the the authors of FOTR "suggest" it went on for most of the night, but that there is no genuine evidence to support the allegation.

and you wonder 'why' people call you to task for your statements?


Yeah, this is called "putting words into people's mouths to fit one's own purpose", and AGR is an expert at this.  ::)  >:(


Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #295 on: February 08, 2006, 09:56:13 AM »
Quote

Quote

But how long did said screaming go on for?



Missed this question of MMs.

Elisabeth tell us that according to Gibbes "it went on for most of the night":

Quote

FOTR implies it went on for most of the night. But I don't think we can take their word for it. The authors clearly made a big mistake in stating repeatedly that Volkov like Gibbes discussed this incident in his memoirs. In fact he did not. He said the opposite: that the guards "
the grand duchesses in peace."  That means Gibbes is the only witness to say this incident ever occurred. Volkov, Buxhoeveden, and Gilliard don't mention it. So how do we know that it even happened? Simple, we don't.

And on further thought it seems likely to me that if there was any screaming, it was earlier on in the evening or afternoon, when the soldiers started firing their weapons into the air and setting off grenades in the water. Maybe some of the women (not necessarily even the grand duchesses) were startled and cried out. Gibbes, in recalling the trip on the Rus years later, simply got his memories mixed up. After all, he was writing his recollections after the Ekaterinburg murders. In retrospect everything that went on with the Bolsheviks must have seemed even worse to him than it actually was at the time.

At any rate I would say this entire section of FOTR is highly suspect because the authors made the mistake with Volkov. Not only that, but they don't even cite Gibbes' recollections of the incident in full.  They only quote snippets of it. So how can we even know what he meant? The quotes might have been taken out of context.


Quote
Gibbes, in recalling the trip on the Rus years later, simply got his memories mixed up

Quote
If he simply got his memories mixed up,  what other night could he have mixed up with the night on the Russ?


AGBear


Quote

Not correct Bear. Elisabeth tells us NOTHING of the sort. She says the the authors of FOTR "suggest" it went on for most of the night, but that there is no genuine evidence to support the allegation.

and you wonder 'why' people call you to task for your statements?


Evidently you had read my first post which I had removed  and placed it with my earlier post.   I had made a decision I didn't want  it on it's own. While doing so,  I realized I had incorrectly  said "Elisabeth had said" and corrected it.

Your [FA's and Helen's]  following posts  I didn't notice because I was busy with my post.

Thanks for pointing out my error.  I always correct my errors when I know I was incorrect.

Quote

Yeah, this is called "putting words into people's mouths to fit one's own purpose", and AGR is an expert at this.  ::)  >:(



Helen:  
You have accused me of this before.  When I ask for  examples,  you never replied.  Why?  Because I always link my quotes to the original so people can go and read for themselves what a person has said.

Wouldn't it be nice if either of you sent me a PM asking me if I had meant "Elisabeth had said"  instead of having to do this in public? 

I ended up asking if Gibbes had mixed up his memories  was there ever another night  with which he could have gotten mixed with the Russ night?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Elisabeth

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2131
    • View Profile
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #296 on: February 08, 2006, 10:29:09 AM »
Quote
I ended up asking if Gibbes had mixed up his memories  was there ever another night  with which he could have gotten mixed with the Russ night?

AGRBear


Yes, the night of July 16-17, 1918, as Gibbes imagined it must have been for the family he loved.

Think about it. The Red Army men on the Rus started firing volleys of shots into the air. Maybe a woman cried out in surprise or fright. The sound of gunfire, female cries. Why wouldn't Gibbes look back on that experience as a foreshadowing of the Ekaterinburg murders? The memory of the Rus combined with his knowledge of what later happened at Ekaterinburg could easily have gotten mixed up in his mind. Memory is a curious thing.

But it's crucial to remember that we only have his son George Gibbes' word for it that his father heard the grand duchesses screaming on board the Rus. Gibbes himself never made mention of such a thing in his reminiscences. No other witness who was on board the Rus mentions it, either. The most logical conclusion we can draw is that Gibbes had a very overactive imagination, or that his son was mistaken in his own memory of what his father told him.


... I love my poor earth
because I have seen no other

-- Osip Mandelshtam

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #297 on: February 09, 2006, 09:08:17 AM »
Sometimes it happens that the conversation get's to a "Y" in the road.  Evidently,  story about the possibility or impossiblity of  the rape/rapes of the GDs on the Russ has jumped over to the Final Chapter section, topic "Rape" or for some has continued there since it doesn't invovled AA's story:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1125891788;start=0#0

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #298 on: February 09, 2006, 09:31:14 AM »
Quote

Yes, the night of July 16-17, 1918, as Gibbes imagined it must have been for the family he loved.

Think about it. The Red Army men on the Rus started firing volleys of shots into the air. Maybe a woman cried out in surprise or fright. The sound of gunfire, female cries. Why wouldn't Gibbes look back on that experience as a foreshadowing of the Ekaterinburg murders? The memory of the Rus combined with his knowledge of what later happened at Ekaterinburg could easily have gotten mixed up in his mind. Memory is a curious thing.

But it's crucial to remember that we only have his son George Gibbes' word for it that his father heard the grand duchesses screaming on board the Rus. Gibbes himself never made mention of such a thing in his reminiscences. No other witness who was on board the Rus mentions it, either. The most logical conclusion we can draw is that Gibbes had a very overactive imagination, or that his son was mistaken in his own memory of what his father told him.




Would you like to continue this over on the rape thread?

I do have a couple of questions.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Tsarina_Liz

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 569
  • Existence is not a predicate.  - Kant
    • View Profile
Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #299 on: February 09, 2006, 10:27:04 AM »
This rape stuff is getting depressing.  

So I'd like to bring up, again, the question of why (if AA was AN) she did not immediately run to her close family members and friends in Russia and Denmark or even England?  Did AA ever have a reason why she completely ignored her Aunts and her grandmother and ran to Irene of Prussia and her Romanian cousin (I can't remember her name)?
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.