Author Topic: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3  (Read 45899 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2005, 08:21:30 PM »
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As far as I know,  I believe Greg King and Penny Wilson are still considered legimate sources even though some do not agree with ALL their opinions and conclusions.

AGRBear
 


No matter who says it, I want proof to back it up, not just someone's word. You or I could post that we had found something, we might even get it published. But without proof, what do we have? I want to see something  concrete, not just lip service and words on a message board.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2005, 09:32:15 PM »
I know what you are asking for, Annie, but is almost impossible to get these here. If you ask for "proof" it can't be a book written by King, Wilson, Massie , Kurth, Decaux, Gilliard or anyone else. Proof, for me are primary sources, not secondary ones. Sadly, the only way for us to find these is ...travel to Russia, Poland, Germany and Rumania to get them. Of course we must be able to read and speak Russian, German , Polish and Rumanian to read these sources. Like most people here, I can't travel so often, and I can't read any of those foreign languages...So, I must be borned to read the books written by King, Wilson, Kurth, Massie, Decaux, Gilliard etc, etc. In these books, primary sources are quoted, and if these authors didn't fake them (and I don't think they did it ) I must assume this sources as fact.

When I read a History book, I'm used to don't care about the authors opinion and  I go check the notes with primary sources quoted under the pages or in the " Chapter's Notes" section after the end of the principal body of the book. The really important thing in a history book are the notes where primary sources are quoted. These are documents and documents must be accepted, for the author's opinions are out of there.

We may object that we must also analise the document authenticity, by whom these document was written, and so on...But this is another matter. If we assume that even documents could been fake, we have no way to prove anything.

Sorry...I know I'm confuse. My English is awful and I have so much to said... :-/

RealAnastasia.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2005, 12:36:51 AM »
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Boy...is my faith in so-called "EXPERTS" in the AA/AN/FS story sinking fast....when the testing of 4 independant labs in different parts of the Globe find that AA was NOT AN and WAS most likely FS....and STILL folk will not accept this....these labs do this testing day-in...day out....and PLEEEEEESE...stop with the absurd ...."tissue switch theory"....which no one can even come close to proving....


I hope if I commit homicide someday....that I have such faithful folk as my attorneys...


I remember a very similar situation prior to the publication of Fate of the Romanovs. Several posters on the ATR (alt.talk.royalty) newsgroup were up in arms, myself included, over purported findings that the grand duchesses had behaved improperly with the guards in Ekaterinburg.

When I read FOTR, I saw a very reasoned presentation of evidence regarding Marie's possible flirtation with one of the guards at Ekaterinburg.

In other words, the findings that actually ended up in the book were neither lurid nor sensationalistic. I have therefore adopted a wait and see attitude towards this type of thing, especially when it involves my friend Greg King.

I believe Greg will handle the material regarding AA and FS responsibly as always, and I don't think for one minute that he will ignore the DNA findings completely.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2005, 03:38:26 AM »
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... over purported findings that the grand duchesses had behaved improperly with the guards in Ekaterinburg.

... Marie's possible flirtation with one of the guards at Ekaterinburg.


Respectfully, Mariya's "possible flirtation" is mere conjecture.

Possibilties are not reliable proven facts.  

To believe the words of a murderer or other bolsheviks must be considered highly suspect, under the given circumstances.  

It is highly offensive to contemplate that Mariya or any of the other Grand Duchesses did not act with anything other than with propriety.

Discrediting the Imperial Family would have been far more politically acceptable, while sadly the truth becomes the first victim. [/b]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Annie

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2005, 07:41:19 AM »
Also, it could have been an 'in your dreams' type of thing where the guy imagined advances that really weren't there. It is very strange that none of this appears in the surviving diaries of the IF.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2005, 09:10:06 AM »
Please also do not forget that N&A were NOT stupid either. Bob is of the personal opinion that the guard's flirtation toward Maria was encouraged guardedly by them as an obvious means of obtaining information they would not otherwise have gotten.  It makes total sense to me as well. Just because Maria "may" have been flirting back, does not MEAN she was serious about it.   This explanation seems most logical to me, especially in the extraordinary circumstances the family was in.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2005, 01:31:05 PM »
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Respectfully, Mariya's "possible flirtation" is mere conjecture.
 
Possibilties are not reliable proven facts.  
 
To believe the words of a murderer or other bolsheviks must be considered highly suspect, under the given circumstances.  
 
It is highly offensive to contemplate that Mariya or any of the other Grand Duchesses did not act with anything other than with propriety.
 
Discrediting the Imperial Family would have been far more politically acceptable, while sadly the truth becomes the first victim. [/b]


Belochka: I too was concerned that the material that was being discussed was exactly that - just a way to discredit the Imperial Family.

However, Bob and I have long been in agreement that it is very likely that the girls were very heroic in trying to use their natural appeal to try to ease the family's situation. We have never thought or said they did anything remotely improper. However, in between these parameters is a place where their friendliness combined with the fact that they were celebrities of a sort, especially in Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg, would have made it possible to find out vital information for their parents. I don't think that Nicholas and Alexandra were able to do anything like this - they had poor survival skills.

However, if it offends you to hear me say that maybe Marie did this, I do beg your pardon. For me, the family is very appealing in their fundamental humanity, but I realize this is not the case for everyone.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2005, 08:43:02 PM »
 
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.... the guy imagined advances that really weren't there....  


This happens all the time, so why not in this case?  ;)

But seriously, it could just have been a mistaken personal interpretation not necessarily a lie. In Maria's case, she was reportedly the most friendly of all four girls, and her behavior could have been misinterpreted. We will never know what really happened because sadly she did not live to tell her side of the story... and there are always two sides to the story!

Offline Annie

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2005, 08:55:31 PM »
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This happens all the time, so why not in this case?  ;)



It happened to me! I was 19 and looked good in a pair of hot pants, and I used to ride a bike every night for excercise. There was an elderly man named Sam in the neighborhood who often talked to my father and my sister's husband, so I knew he'd had heart surgeries and had to walk for his health. He walked in the early summer evenings when it cooled down, same time I rode my bike. Being that we used the same streets, I passed him up at least once every night, and to be nice, I always waved and said hi.

Well, the next thing I know, he stopped me one night and, breathing heavily, grabbed my arm and told me to go meet him in the cornfield. I was so scared I rushed right home. I told my Mom and she said what a dirty old man he was, and to avoid him. But the next thing I knew, it was all over the neighborhood that I had propositioned him, a married man, and I was a jezebel. I sold Avon, and lost at least half my old lady customers who shut the door in my face as soon as they saw me. I found out through the grapevine all kinds of terrible things about myself that weren't true. He claimed I jumped on the bike every night as soon as I saw him walking so I could chase him down in hopes of catching him! Apparently, he had let his ego overrule reality and he had made himself quite a tale!

It may have been in this case too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2005, 09:01:41 PM »
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It happened to me!


Annie, I think this type of thing has probably happened to almost everyone...  ;D  This is why it wouldn't be surprising in this case either. But we'll never know.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2005, 11:06:30 PM »
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However, if it offends you to hear me say that maybe Marie did this, I do beg your pardon. For me, the family is very appealing in their fundamental humanity, but I realize this is not the case for everyone.


Thank you for understanding my position.


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Offline Annie

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2005, 06:00:30 AM »
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Annie, I think this type of thing has probably happened to almost everyone...  ;D  This is why it wouldn't be surprising in this case either. But we'll never know.


But I lived to defend myself (for all the good it did) and Maria didn't.

I also think there is something to the thing that people will portray those they don't like in a more negative light. The people who imprisoned and shot the family didn't like them, so it's not out of line to think they may have fabricated or exaggerated things to make them look bad. Anyone's enemies do this.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2005, 09:25:05 AM »
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But I lived to defend myself (for all the good it did) and Maria didn't.


Exactly my point.

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I also think there is something to the thing that people will portray those they don't like in a more negative light. The people who imprisoned and shot the family didn't like them, so it's not out of line to think they may have fabricated or exaggerated things to make them look bad. Anyone's enemies do this.


Not to mention that every author has certain feelings towards the subject they are writing about, negative or positive, and can't be completely neutral. So inadvertantly (or sometimes deliberately) authors may selectively use documents to "prove" their points of view, and omit ones that go against it.  This is why it is always best to read and take into consideration as many points of view as possible in order to make an informed decision. And even better to examine primary documents yourself whenever possible.


Offline Annie

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2005, 10:25:12 AM »
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Not to mention that every author has certain feelings towards the subject they are writing about, negative or positive, and can't be completely neutral. So inadvertantly (or sometimes deliberately) authors may selectively use documents to "prove" their points of view, and omit ones that go against it.  This is why it is always best to read and take into consideration as many points of view as possible in order to make an informed decision. And even better to examine primary documents yourself whenever possible.



Very well put. This is exactly why I question 'new evidence' that is only mentioned by one writer, especially if that writer seems extremely bias to one viewpoint. I do believe a lot of people are not above 'selective' use of documents, leaving out those that do not suit their 'side' while using more questionable things that do. This is why it is best to explore various sources and authors on a topic before forming an opinon. Those who only believe one writer are putting themselves at a disadvantage.

Offline Denise

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 3
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2005, 11:23:39 AM »
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This is why it is best to explore various sources and authors on a topic before forming an opinon. Those who only believe one writer are putting themselves at a disadvantage.


True.  But sometimes it may take a while for other researchers to write on a topic.  As we know, Russia has just opened up many of its archives, so therefore it may be some time before there a variety of authors writing on the same topic based on new research (hope that was clear).  So, we need to use our own common sense when digesting any new "revelations" in light of what has gone before.  

As mentioned before, it is hard for many layman Americans to research primary documents due to language difficulties.  So many of us rely on the books that are being released to tell us what those documents contain.