Author Topic: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4  (Read 44624 times)

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Offline Louis_Charles

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Schanzkowska/Andersen  felt that Irene would have been "disgraced" by the out-of-wedlock child, and I think had the same reservations about Missy, although most people who knew Marie of Roumania found it improbable that she would have turned her back upon Anastasia under those conditions. I know nothing about Irene, but I find it improbable that she would have blamed her niece for anything that happened, if it meant she would have survived the massacre. But as I said, I know nothing about Irene of Prussia's personality.

I have no idea why she didn't go to Denmark to catch up with Olga Alexandrovna and her grandmother, although given the results of her later meeting with Anastasia's aunt, it was probably a smart move on her part.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2006, 10:37:35 AM »
Quote
Did AA ever have a reason why she completely ignored her Aunts and her grandmother and ran to Irene of Prussia and her Romanian cousin (I can't remember her name)?


The reason was that they were not her grandmother and her aunts, and since Schankowszka was in Germany to begin with, this is where she ended up jumping into the canal, which coincidentally was where Anastasia's Aunt Irene and her cousins lived.  So she just went with that and those who wanted to believe her story didn't seem to question it.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2006, 10:43:12 AM »
Liz,

Just for the record, I agree with Helen, of course. But the question asked why, if AA was AN, she didn't hit the nearest relatives up for help. The reticence to reveal the pregnancy was the reason given concerning Irene.
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2006, 10:49:42 AM »
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Liz,

Just for the record, I agree with Helen, of course. But the question asked why, if AA was AN, she didn't hit the nearest relatives up for help. The reticence to reveal the pregnancy was the reason given concerning Irene.


But I think that this is precisely why some questioned why she wouldn't have gone to her other aunt who was a lot more "liberal" than Irene, and who would have been more likely to accept the fact that her niece was pregnant and understand her circumstances. Instead, supposedly she made her way to Germany planning on seeing Aunt Irene, and only after she supposedly got there she "changed her mind" and realized that she didn't want any of her relatives to know that she was pregnant (which she wasn't at the time of her attempted suicide anyway).

But then again, why would we expect a disturbed woman like FS to be totally logical and come up with a story that makes perfect sense?

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2006, 10:55:53 AM »
I'm at work, and away from my books, but I will hunt down a quote from Olga Alexandrovna that stuck with me: "As if any of us would have turned away Nicky's daughter under any circumstances."
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Offline Annie

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2006, 11:23:17 AM »
Liz, it wasn't  a Romanian cousin but Nina Georgevna she went to (daughter or George Mikhailovich). She did have some cousin in the royal family in Romania, I forget her name, (possibly Marie or "Minnie?" Maybe 'GreekMinnie?)  but I have heard she was very liberal and freewheeling (with or without a cart) and wouldn't have had a problem with the illegitimate child, so why didn't AA go right to her?

Of course the answer is that AA was really FS and not AN, but this is yet another ridiculous hole in the story. If the real AN would have been desperate in Romania, she would have known to turn to her cousin there instead of living in shabby quarters with the imaginary T. family.

One more thing I just thought of, wasn't AA supposed to (as AN) have had amnesia due to her traumatic experience? Is this the excuse for her memories being sporadic and often incorrect?

The marquee reads:

Now playing "The Anna Anderson Story" starring Franziska Schanskowska as Anastasia N. Romanov!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2006, 12:20:00 PM »
 She did have some cousin in the royal family in Romania, I forget her name, (possibly Marie or "Minnie?" Maybe 'GreekMinnie?)  but I have heard she was very liberal and freewheeling (with or without a cart) and wouldn't have had a problem with the illegitimate child, so why didn't AA go right to her?

I think the Romanian cousin was Alexandra's cousin Marie, Queen of Romania.  Seeing as one, possibly two of her kids were illegitimate, maybe AA thought she'd be a safe bet at accepting her 'pregnancy'.  Though, of course, Marie of Romania had only seen the family in the visit they made when Olga was being paired up with Carol.  I doubt she would have known Anastasia well enough to have said definitely whether AA was her or not, which is probably why AA thought of going to her.  She could easily manipulate her into getting her to believe she was AN, because Marie wouldn't have known AN's physical characteristics well enough to say for definite either way.

As GD Olga said anyway, none of the family would have turned their back on AA if she was Anastasia.  All of this rubbish about how they wanted the money bla bla bla is completely ridiculous.  If AA WAS AN she would have gone directly to the relatives she was closest to and not have been afraid of being turned away.  By all accounts she was closest to GD Olga, and if GD Olga had believed AA was AN then she would have accepted her no questions asked, regardless of whether she was pregnant or not. The reason AA didn't go straight to GD Olga? Why, because she knew she'd be exposed straight away as a fraud.

Interesting point about AA supposedly being an amnesiac.  That story gives a convenient excuse for her inability to remember people, doesn't it? 'Oh, well, you know...she was an amnesiac.  We can't expect her to recognise everybody she knew.'  

Rachel
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'History teaches that history teaches us nothing' ~ Hegel

Offline Annie

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2006, 12:48:53 PM »
Quote
She did have some cousin in the royal family in Romania, I forget her name, (possibly Marie or "Minnie?" Maybe 'GreekMinnie?)  but I have heard she was very liberal and freewheeling (with or without a cart) and wouldn't have had a problem with the illegitimate child, so why didn't AA go right to her?

I think the Romanian cousin was Alexandra's cousin Marie, Queen of Romania.  Seeing as one, possibly two of her kids were illegitimate, maybe AA thought she'd be a safe bet at accepting her 'pregnancy'.  Though, of course, Marie of Romania had only seen the family in the visit they made when Olga was being paired up with Carol.  I doubt she would have known Anastasia well enough to have said definitely whether AA was her or not, which is probably why AA thought of going to her.  She could easily manipulate her into getting her to believe she was AN, because Marie wouldn't have known AN's physical characteristics well enough to say for definite either way.


Sorry I didn't make myself clear. AA did NOT go to Greek Minnie, and some people question why she didn't since she would have accepted the real AN (who AA of course was not) Her NOT going to Greek Minnie in Romania is yet another sign that she was not AN, because the real AN would have! AA/FS likely didn't have any idea who she was, so she never tried.

The cousin who accepted her was Nina Georgevna, daughter of George Mikhailovich, Nicholas's second cousin. Nina was 2 years younger than AN, had played with her as a child, but hadn't seen her since she was little (could you id a cousin grown up you hadn't seen since you were 5?  I don't think any of us could accurately do that)  so she simply made a mistake, or was overcome by the excitement of the possible escape story. She treated her to extravagance at her Long Island estate, but avoided her once the family announced her as a fraud. I don't think Nina was in on any plot to get money, and I don't think she fed her info. She just goofed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Tania+

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2006, 12:52:54 PM »
Sorry FA, but it's been many years since I saw the film on 'BJ'. Would your kindly tell me what significance the wheelchair has to do with AA's story and the character Jane ? I'm completely thrown by it ? Thanks.

Tatiana+

Quote
"If AN had survived...."
"If AN had gotten raped..."
"If AN had taken a cart trip..."
"If AN...."

"You wouldn't be able to do these awful things to me if I weren't still in this chair..."
"but ya are, Blanche, ya ARE in the wheel chair...ya ARE in that wheel chair..."

TatianaA


Offline Annie

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2006, 12:57:36 PM »
It was a joke about AA's cart story. She didn't have the cart, so it doesn't matter what would happen IF the cart did this or that, but there was no escape, no cart. It's like 'IF you weren't in the wheelchair," but she was in it, so it doesn't matter what would happen if she weren't.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2006, 12:58:18 PM »
Annie-

Oh, right, I get you. Sorry for the mix up!

Yes, I did know Nina believed in AA at the start.  In Blair Lovell book Nina is made out to be a really close relative, but of course, in reality, like you say, she hadn't seen AN since childhood.  So, not really that reliable, then!

It's interesting that the majority of people who DID support AA had either only seen AN as a child or seen her so infrequently that their knowledge of what AN looked like was very limited.

No one of any degree of closeness to the Imperial Family consistently believed in AA throughout it all.  And you'd kinda think they would know...

Rachel
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'History teaches that history teaches us nothing' ~ Hegel

Offline Annie

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2006, 01:04:19 PM »
Quote
Annie-

Oh, right, I get you. Sorry for the mix up!

Yes, I did know Nina believed in AA at the start.  In Blair Lovell book Nina is made out to be a really close relative, but of course, in reality, like you say, she hadn't seen AN since childhood.  So, not really that reliable, then!

It's interesting that the majority of people who DID support AA had either only seen AN as a child or seen her so infrequently that their knowledge of what AN looked like was very limited.

No one of any degree of closeness to the Imperial Family consistently believed in AA throughout it all.  And you'd kinda think they would know...

Rachel
xx


Very true! I have made lists of her supporters, and why they wouldn't have likely been any expert on recognizing her. I don't know if one is in this thread or not.

It also reminds me that sadly, there was a funeral for an uncle last month and I went with my younger brother. I hadn't seen many of these cousins in years, since we were kids and all used to get together, and we are all now in our 30's-50's. My brother, who thought I'd remember better since I'm older, asked me quietly to point people out to him so he wouldn't be embarrassed by not recognizing them. Of all the cousins we were looking for, I was only able to pick ONE out of the crowd, and I had seen her once she was grown. Of the ones I hadn't seen since they were children, I couldn't identify even one. I can on the other side of the family, because I had seen them all along at every age. But going straight from 9 to 45, no way. This is how it goes for anyone, so it's natural that Nina was mistaken, and 'taken!' ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Annie

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2006, 01:21:04 PM »
?I'll make a partial list of supporters and why I don't think they were accurate judges of accepting her or not. I will do more later when I have more time.

Grand Duke Andre
He was born in 1879, making him 22 years older than AN. Being a member of the Vladimirovich family, (hated by Nicholas, Alexandra, Marie F. and her other children) he was not among the most frequent or welcome guests of the IF, and when he was, it was in situations where children weren't around. I find his acceptance interesting since his own brother Kyril was the "Tsar In Exile" and he himself in line for the 'throne' so he seems to be one who would reject a claimant or even a real AN for his own good. Olga once wrote she wondered what he was up to, surely he was against her branch of the family, I think this is something to do with it.

Mathilde K
Nicholas's ballerina lover before he was married, and wife of Andre. As an OLD woman of 90, she met AA who was then in her 60's and declared her to be AN because she had 'Nicky's eyes.' Eye color alone means nothing. She seemed to be a sad old woman dreaming of the past, and hoping. As old as they both were I don't see how she could see a child in her after all those years(and I doubt she saw the real AN anyway, being her father's mistress she was hardly a regular guest I'm sure, also, being married to Andre, see above)

Lili Dehn
Friend of Alexandra, lived at the palace since about 1912. Again, she was very old, and so was AA when they met. I don't say she's a liar, she was wrong, or only wishing.

It is strange that Anna V., who lived practically as a member of the family since AN was a baby and was perhaps closer to the girls than anyone left alive was not asked. Tatiana Botkin claimed it was because she was a 'disciple of Rasputin', but so was Dehn! AN herself wore his icon around her neck so why would this bother her (if she were AN?) It makes no sense. I guess Anna would know AN TOO well and that scared her supporters (especially if they knew she was a fake!)

Deposed Crown Princess Cecile of Germany
Daughter of Anastasia Mikhailovich, (who was the sister of George, Nina's dad) this distant cousin would have known AN much less than Nina. Born in 1886, she was 15 years older than AN so they didn't grow up together, and in 1904 she married Crown Prince Wilhelm and moved to Germany, making infrequent visits back to Russia and of course none after the war broke out. She couldn't possibly have seen much of AN, and never after she was beyond childhood. Also, both Cecile and her husband were said to have gone eccentric after they were deposed after WWI. No credibilty here at all.

The son of Irene (name escapes me at the moment) Born 1895 (I think) saw her briefly in childhood visits, and never after the war broke out as he was a German prince. The test he gave her to fill out that supporters claim she 'knew things only AN would have known' was actually very basic since he didn't know her that well, and though she got them mostly right, someone could have told her or she could have done research. And if "only AN would know" who could correct them? ;)

Gleb Botkin
I don't even think I have to elaborate on this one. You all know what I think. ;)

But I DO think he would know the real AN, since he had seen her as recently as 1917. This makes me even more likely to think he was 'helping' her (much like the character Dmitri in the bogus "Anastasia" cartoon)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Tania+

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2006, 01:54:07 PM »
I'm just wondering, how we might approach getting across stories, without using labels, or pointing out, or making commentary to that of 'noticeable differences', because a person, or people may be mentally disabled, physically disabled...We surely must have a larger scenerio to draw upon, in offering mental images, instead of picking on those whose struggle is and remains, continuous. We must find and offer other ways of keeping people focused, at the same time making sure we offer no disrespect to adult(s), or children.

Offering to make a joke based on any person or in that of how a wheelchair certains,[but is actual plus in aiding people whom use this on a daily baisis], to me is not a joke. To be incapicated, sentenced to a wheelchair is difficult enough, without having to read of it being placed on a thread, as a joke, to make one's point.

I work as a commissioner on our cities policy, as well as making sure citizens remain sensitive to how the disabled community is addressed. I hope the posters on the AP Website, will help to make sure this is not a continuum of practice. Thanks for understanding.

Tatiana+






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It was a joke about AA's cart story. She didn't have the cart, so it doesn't matter what would happen IF the cart did this or that, but there was no escape, no cart. It's like 'IF you weren't in the wheelchair," but she was in it, so it doesn't matter what would happen if she weren't.

TatianaA


Offline Annie

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2006, 02:34:52 PM »
I understand what you are saying but this was only a movie, the character was ficticioius and the actress wasn't really handicapped. I'm sure no one would make a joke about a person who really needed a wheelchair. It was only an actress in the wheelchair (just as AA was an actress in a ficticious cart) ;)