Author Topic: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4  (Read 49562 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #195 on: March 02, 2006, 11:16:38 AM »
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Weeeell now I wouldn't doubt it, considering Wilson has publically admitted to believing AA was AN, and King has publically written why he thinks the DNA tests were wrong, both are very tight with Kurth. So, if they think, or lean toward, AA being AN, they'd consider that a valid source.


IF there is any evidence of this, I'd be interested in hearing about it.


We have discussed this on other threads some time ago.  


King and Wilson  didn't invent the facts which surrounded Buxhoeveden:
1) She was one of the surviving members of the Romanov group
2) It was said that she didn't hand over a sum of money to Volkov meant for an escaped in Tobolsk but we, now, know that Soloviev was working with the Bolsheviks so this story is in great doubt
3) The CHEKA searched Buxhoeveden and Miss Annie Mather's small apartment and carried away "all kinds of murderous weapons" so they were under the watchful eye of the CHEKA...
4) The Ural Soviet commissar Rodionov later said that while they were on the boat Russ headed to Ekaterinburg that Buxoveden revealed to him about the jewels concelaed beneath the clothing of the IF women but we really don't know the truth of this; Rodinov also questioned Countess Hendrikova, Alexandrine Nikolaeva and Anna Romanova who would have known about the jewels, too, so who know who said what under the Bolshevik interogations... Just as we don't know what kind of humilations and threats they suffered in this Bolshvik's control.
5) Buxhoeveden  refused to be interviewed by Sokolov and it was he who voiced, "It is obvious that her conscience in regards to that period is not entiredly clear." To me,  this sounds like someone who did not like being turned away and was lashing out at the person who had rebuffed him.
6) Grand Duchess Xenia was very friendly and then seem to become angry at her....

p. 505 FATE OF THE ROMANOVS:
>>Surviving members of the Romanov family, however, were deeply suspicious of her behvaior in Siberia.<<

Perhpas these were the ones who believed in gossip rather than understand what happen in Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg.  Perhaps they thought she had saved more jewels and wasn't giving them to them.  Perhaps they thought she had worked with the Reds to save her own skin.  Who knows.

I have not read her book but from what others have said on earlier on other threads,  apparently Buxhoeveden did not write about what occured and for some the silence seems to tell them of her guilt.  How rediculous.  Here is a woman who stood by the family up to almost the end and probably would have died with the family if she hadn't been separated from them by the Bolshviks.  That is more than all the other Romanovs who were gossiping about her had done.  So,  I give her credit for being loyal.

If she had revealed anything to the Bolsheviks,  I hardly think she was in a position to deny them some kind of information.  But, in fact, we don't know what she had told them.  And,  it was one of the tricks of the Bolsheviks to make other people think the others had already told which placed doubt among those they were questioning.  It's called "divide and conquer".  

All this can be found in bites and pieces in other books, as well.

Quote

The only place I heard it is that AA had said it, which means that, unless I'm wrong (which is why I asked if there was any more info) there is nothing to it, since AA wasn't AN. I've seen those who support AA refer to her as a traitor.



Evidently AA picked up on the piece of gossip and fanned the fires.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #196 on: March 02, 2006, 11:27:43 AM »
You can follow this quote to the thread which talks about Buxhoeveden:


Quote
Do Penny and Greg really say this?  Did they find specific evidence to prove it or was it just conjecture.

It is a possibility but I find it hard to be sure.  There are a number of people that knew about the jewels and valuables in Tobolsk.  I have not found Isa's name mentioned - but perhaps Greg and Penny found something.

It seems unlikely to me that she knew anything specific, since she couldn't come and go into the house like others did.  Also, there were only a few transfers it appears out of the house.  Had she known and told the Bolsheviks or the Guards I am sure they would have STOPPED the transfers, arrested those who did them and searched the house.  Again maybe something has turned up that I haven't seen.

I am not saying that Isa said nothing to the Bolsheviks - she may have to save her life.  It's very odd that she was let go and that makes no sense to me,

Later I know Isa had problems with Gibbes about and a joint bank account in Siberia that they had which she withdrew money out of  without Gibbes's permission.  This put him in a terrible situation and he told her so.  Copies of these letters were at Luton Hoo when I was there.

I don't think the whole story on the jewels has been told yet - there is much that doesn't make sense to me.  The whole question of who knew about them within and outside the entourage is unclear.  I don't know if the Provisional Government knew very much about the jewels they took with them.  There were no inventories they had of the personal jewels and it wiould have taken a long time and the cooperation of people like Gheringer to reconstruct what Alix had with her.  It seems to me the Provisional Government had too many problems of their own to deal with and may not have seen any jewel inquiries through.  perhaps they didn't have an idea of how big her personal collection was.  Very few people knew anything about it, even close friends and family.

What the Bolsheviks knew - well, it should be in an archive somewhere and I haven't seen anything yet that says they knew anything specific.  They might have suspected something in Yekaterinburg, but if they had known about the double camasoles and such they would have immediately searched the bodies for these before taking them to the truck.  Also, they would have throughly searched the rooms immediately after the murder and they didn't do this either (it appears).

So I think the Bolsheviks didn't know about them and it is unlikely Isa said anything that roused any great interest in jewels.

Bob


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #197 on: March 02, 2006, 11:55:24 AM »
Since this thread is getting to long and difficult to load someone has started a Anna Anderson Part 2:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1141315820

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Tania+

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #198 on: March 02, 2006, 02:09:52 PM »
You are correct. Dr. Botkin was utterly LOYAL! He was of the 'old school'. His love of The Tsar, and the Imperial Family was everything. It was in those days his heart felt action to expressing his code of honor. It was certainly his way of responding to an age old custom, as servants of the court had done, for generations, in terms of being and showing loyalty. This was not so much for others to view, but this offering in itself was an offering truly from his heart. Many of the Tsar's cossack guards showed this type of loyalty as well. This was not viewed as unusual.

Simply put, Dr. Botkin was loyal to his faith, and his Tsar.

One more thing, Bear, some posters are trying to match present day health codes, or that of required medical conducts to those days in which it cannot be made applicable, as there were no universal codes as such. For Orthodox Russians then, God, Tsar were everything! Today for many Orthodox Russians, still today, the memory of The Imperial Family, holds much meaning, even though they are now deceased. I hope this helps in offering some understanding of the 'old ways'.

Tatiana+


Quote
There is loyality and then there is LOYALITY.

Botkin falls under  "LOYALITY".

I don't know what he thought of course but I believe he was of the "old school" where his Tsar came first and above all else.  And as his servent and friend,  it was his duty to die with him if God so willed this to happen.

For those of us living in 2006,  it may be difficult to understand the mind set of Botkin and the other servents but you might be able to understand if you realize that they believed that the Tsar had been chosen by their God.  And that God had placed Nicholas II on the throne.  So, to be loyal to the Tsar was also being loyal to their God.

Perhaps someone who knows more about their religious outlook can explain this better than I.


AGRBear

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #199 on: March 02, 2006, 02:16:58 PM »
The discussion about "Buxhoveden theories in FOTR" has been transferred over to the FOTR thread (http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Books;action=d isplay;num=1080907570;start=325#325) in order to avoid having two identical discussions at the same time. If anyone would like to discuss this further, or read the other discussion, please see the other thread. This thread is about Anna Anderson's story, not theories in FOTR... Thanks!

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #200 on: March 02, 2006, 02:41:06 PM »
Quote
You are correct. Dr. Botkin was utterly LOYAL! He was of the 'old school'. His love of The Tsar, and the Imperial Family was everything. It was in those days his heart felt action to expressing his code of honor. It was certainly his way of responding to an age old custom, as servants of the court had done, for generations, in terms of being and showing loyalty. This was not so much for others to view, but this offering in itself was an offering truly from his heart. Many of the Tsar's cossack guards showed this type of loyalty as well. This was not viewed as unusual.

Simply put, Dr. Botkin was loyal to his faith, and his Tsar.

One more thing, Bear, some posters are trying to match present day health codes, or that of required medical conducts to those days in which it cannot be made applicable, as there were no universal codes as such. For Orthodox Russians then, God, Tsar were everything! Today for many Orthodox Russians, still today, the memory of The Imperial Family, holds much meaning, even though they are now deceased. I hope this helps in offering some understanding of the 'old ways'.

Tatiana+




Thank you Tania.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #201 on: March 02, 2006, 02:41:50 PM »
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Since this thread is getting to long and difficult to load someone has started a Anna Anderson Part 2:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1141315820

AGRBear

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #202 on: March 17, 2006, 11:12:58 PM »
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She would have done much better to describe the toilets in the private quarters.


Funny that you should mention that. At Schloss Seon, Miss Faith Lavington received from her sister an article clipped from the New York Times, headlined "First Uncensored Photos from Soviet Russia" and depicting various rooms from the Tsar's palaces at Tsarskoe Selo and Livadia. Miss Lavington carefully cut away every scrap of printed matter which could show in any way what these illustrations were. AA took up the first photograph "quite indifferently", until she suddenly turned very red and exclaimed: "But this is my Papa's bathroom".
And that was just what it was.

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #203 on: March 18, 2006, 08:28:29 AM »
My first thought was, what would AN have been doing in her father's private bathroom? Surely they had their own and they didn't go in the parents' private ones. The Tsar likely kept his for himself alone. And, if she were so traumatized that she didn't remember hardly anything, why a toilet? Of course, I'm wasting my energy, it's a fact this woman (AA) was never in Livadia.

Also, we have no proof the letters were actually cut off, or that she didn't see it before they were.

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #204 on: March 18, 2006, 08:58:00 AM »
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My first thought was, what would AN have been doing in her father's private bathroom? Surely they had their own and they didn't go in the parents' private ones. The Tsar likely kept his for himself alone.

Actually, AN did use the Tsar's private bathroom at the AP from time to time. She and Maria liked to swim in his Turkish bathtub. There are letters to Nicholas at Stavka from the girls, thanking him for letting them paddle in his pool.

I don't think it's very likely that AA was ever in the Tsar's private bathroom, though.  ;)
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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #205 on: March 18, 2006, 09:25:29 AM »
I had read once that Alexei was allowed to play in the tub at the AP, and the girls were jealous they didn't get a turn (This was in a letter from Alix to N) But the pictures in question are of Livadia, not the AP. And AA was never in either place. I also don't think anyone else saw the toilet to feed her the memory, it was either a guess (she had to get suspicious the words were cut off, if they were, and figure it must be something royal) or the story is an exaggeration or fabrication. This is one of the biggest problems I have with AA's case, so much of the 'evidence' is just one person's word of mouth, and tidbits of stories.They could have been wrong, or lying. If someone had put AA before a camera and given her tests and questions and she answered alone, it may have been more convincing, but even then, she'd had to have been coached since she wasn't AN.

And no, I don't believe for one second ChatNoir doesn't believe AA was AN, of course he does. I don't know why supporters who post every single thing in her favor and criticize those against her case so strongly try the old "I don't think she was AN" thing, what, is that supposed to give you more credibility? Supposed to make us 'think' more? Please. We already have thought, and we know better. All your 'unanswered questions' were answered by the DNA. If there was ever any question of which evidence was right or wrong, and who was lying/mistaken, we now know- everything in AA's favor was wiped out by the DNA which proved her a fraud. All the shoes, toilets, this or that hearsay of what language, it's all moot now. We know the answer.

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #206 on: March 18, 2006, 11:28:43 AM »
Alexandra wrote a letter to Nicholas asking if all of the girls could use his bath, and he agreed. So all five of the children used it at some point. However, like you pointed out Annie, this was in the Alexander Palace. Though none of this really matters because Anna Anderson was not Anastasia.

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #207 on: March 18, 2006, 11:46:56 AM »
Thanks Raegan:)

I was rereading John Godl's article, and I found this.

The Russian Refugee Office in Berlin, presided over by Serge Botkin, represented the interests of exiles in Germany and came to the aid of Anderson (then calling herself Mrs Tschaikovsky). The organization was basically a monarchist support group and the suicidally depressed woman soon found herself embraced by sympathetic exiles, many sending or bringing her flowers, sweets and letters of encouragement.

I hadn't noticed this! Gleb's uncle the head of the Russian emigre' community in Berlin, very interesting.

once again, the entire article:

http://www.serfes.org/royal/annaanderson.htm

The more I see, the more I find iceberg size holes in AA's claim from all angles. The only 'mystery' and 'unanswered question' left is how she managed to pull off this charade for so long, and who all helped her. Of course, none of them are going to admit it, even in diaries, it would be confessing to fraud. That would leave them jailed in their lifetimes, and disgraced in death. But that doesn't mean they didn't do it. Somebody helped her, because she was not AN.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #208 on: March 19, 2006, 06:59:42 AM »
Yes,Tedders...I think we have all reached the state of beating the "ghost" of the dead horse... ::)

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 4
« Reply #209 on: March 19, 2006, 01:09:55 PM »
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Yes,Tedders...I think we have all reached the state of beating the "ghost" of the dead horse... ::)


Yes, it's sad but true, poor thing :'( :-/