Author Topic: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6  (Read 79434 times)

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Offline Puppylove

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #255 on: February 27, 2008, 10:45:08 AM »
Fascinating thread Sarushka!
I too am in the camp of indifference, so this will be an interesting thread to follow.


Ok, I'll bite: the saga has something for everyone. You have a mixed-up protagonist with murky origins, you have class warfare and international intrgue, family dynamics, language dynamics, ethnic dynamics, identity theft, cutting-edge science and technology, possible mental illness or outright derangement, courtroom drama with eyewitness testimony, lots of physical and circumstancial evidence and charges of evidence-tampering and conspiracy, lost bones, found bones, cats in a fireplace, an author in the guise of a knight in shining armor on behalf of the protagonist, and mountains of sympathy for a murdered grand duchess.

What's not to love?
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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #256 on: February 27, 2008, 10:48:53 AM »
OK - here goes.

I am interested in her because I was around when her case went to trial in Berlin in 1964.  Up until that time I didn't even know her name!

I was young and just beginning my Romanov research.  We learned so little about Russian history when I was in school and because we were in the middle of the "Cold War", Soviet Russia was not something we knew much about either.  The general impression was that behind the "Iron Curtain" were the "evil communists".

So to hear about a real life Russian Grand Duchess who might have survived the murder of the family was a big deal to me.  I actually became more interested in Imperial Russian history because of reading about the trial.  And it wasn't ancient history at that time, it was happening in the "now".

I know that many others who post here had been born and were in school at that time, but I just can't impress enough on the younger posters here how much it means (to me) to have lived while history that effects our studies of Imperial Russia was being made.

In the 1960s the Great War and the murder of the Romanovs were almost still close enough in time to reach out and "touch" them.  Actually, WWII was close enough to "touch" because so many of our parents had served and we were only one generation away and could talk to them in person about it.

I heard recently (and way off topic) that the last American soldier (who is still alive) to serve in the Great War is 107 and living in (in think) Virginia.

Just imagine how young this man was, barely 16 in 1917 when he enlisted!

But anyway, back to topic.   :-)


Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #257 on: February 27, 2008, 01:59:28 PM »
I don't really care about Anna Anderson per say, but I got involved in all this because of the scientific aspect... and was sucked in!

I don't think Anna Anderson is so unique as far as these types of reactions from people. Throughout history, there have been numerous pretenders (just look at the pretenders thread), and they all had their passionate champions as well as opposition, equally as passionate. We are just more familiar with Anna Anderson's case because of the nature of this forum and also because she was quite recent...

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #258 on: February 27, 2008, 03:03:11 PM »
I feel strongly about the AA topic because I don't like frauds. It was also a very hurtful thing to do (to pretend to be a callously murdered, much loved, girl that is).
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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #259 on: February 27, 2008, 04:09:58 PM »
Ok, I'll bite: the saga has something for everyone. You have a mixed-up protagonist with murky origins, you have class warfare and international intrgue, family dynamics, language dynamics, ethnic dynamics, identity theft, cutting-edge science and technology, possible mental illness or outright derangement, courtroom drama with eyewitness testimony, lots of physical and circumstancial evidence and charges of evidence-tampering and conspiracy, lost bones, found bones, cats in a fireplace, an author in the guise of a knight in shining armor on behalf of the protagonist, and mountains of sympathy for a murdered grand duchess.

What's not to love?

Of course! I myself am intrigued by the mystery and drama of the case. I don't think it's at all odd to be interested in the case. But what baffles me is why so many people seem to get personally offended by the mere fact that someone else doesn't view the AA/AN issue the same way they do. I've seen flame wars and email harrassment rise out of this issue time and again. A friend of mine who runs an Anastasia fan site recently got a series of rude and condescending emails from an AA-supporter, berating her for not accepting the "truth" that AA = AN. What's up with that kind of crusading?


I feel strongly about the AA topic because I don't like frauds.

That makes sense to me; it's the kind of answer I'm looking for.


I don't think Anna Anderson is so unique as far as these types of reactions from people. Throughout history, there have been numerous pretenders (just look at the pretenders thread), and they all had their passionate champions as well as opposition, equally as passionate.

Certainly I understand why those involved directly with the case would be passionate about it -- people like Gilliard, Botkin, and even Peter Kurth, who knew either AA or AN personally should be expected to feel strongly about all this. But the rest of us -- what's our excuse? Why does this case evoke such passion, indignation, and even fury in people that never had even a remote connection with AA or AN?


I'm trying to think of something similar that would rile me up to the extent that the AA/AN case seems to bother others. What would it take for me to think "You believe THAT? What the %@$# is wrong with you?" Holocaust denial, maybe....
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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #260 on: February 27, 2008, 04:20:03 PM »
Annie -- thank you for the answer in the last paragraph of your post. Regarding the rest of it -- please can I remind you that I specifically asked for posters in this thread to avoid addressing AA's identity (which for the record includes discussion of photographs, Botkin's involvement, DNA, etc.) but rather stick to a discussion of attitudes toward the case as a whole. I'm interested in motivation, not opinion. In other words this isn't the place to argue your case, regardless of what side you're on.
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Offline Puppylove

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #261 on: February 27, 2008, 05:14:47 PM »
Ok, I'll bite: the saga has something for everyone. You have a mixed-up protagonist with murky origins, you have class warfare and international intrgue, family dynamics, language dynamics, ethnic dynamics, identity theft, cutting-edge science and technology, possible mental illness or outright derangement, courtroom drama with eyewitness testimony, lots of physical and circumstancial evidence and charges of evidence-tampering and conspiracy, lost bones, found bones, cats in a fireplace, an author in the guise of a knight in shining armor on behalf of the protagonist, and mountains of sympathy for a murdered grand duchess.

What's not to love?

Of course! I myself am intrigued by the mystery and drama of the case. I don't think it's at all odd to be interested in the case. But what baffles me is why so many people seem to get personally offended by the mere fact that someone else doesn't view the AA/AN issue the same way they do. I've seen flame wars and email harrassment rise out of this issue time and again. A friend of mine who runs an Anastasia fan site recently got a series of rude and condescending emails from an AA-supporter, berating her for not accepting the "truth" that AA = AN. What's up with that kind of crusading?


I feel strongly about the AA topic because I don't like frauds.

That makes sense to me; it's the kind of answer I'm looking for.


I don't think Anna Anderson is so unique as far as these types of reactions from people. Throughout history, there have been numerous pretenders (just look at the pretenders thread), and they all had their passionate champions as well as opposition, equally as passionate.

Certainly I understand why those involved directly with the case would be passionate about it -- people like Gilliard, Botkin, and even Peter Kurth, who knew either AA or AN personally should be expected to feel strongly about all this. But the rest of us -- what's our excuse? Why does this case evoke such passion, indignation, and even fury in people that never had even a remote connection with AA or AN?


I'm trying to think of something similar that would rile me up to the extent that the AA/AN case seems to bother others. What would it take for me to think "You believe THAT? What the %@$# is wrong with you?" Holocaust denial, maybe....

Hi Sarushka,

Good point about holocaust denial. Genocide denial in any form, really. I don't waste my breath much on holocaust deniers because I and hopefully most of the Western World have seen plenty of footage of victims, corpses, ovens, camps before and after liberation. No doubt some of you here have had the experience of visiting the hallowed ground of Dachau, Buchenwald, Treblinka, etc. (I have not). The Nazi regime was nothing if not well-documented.

As for AA, on the face of it she's not much more than a footnote to the Russian imperial family history. But...thanks to this forum, average posters have the opportunity to hear and weigh the evidence and basically try the case for or against her claim themselves. Kind of like any high profile case we don't have a vested interest in, but obsess about while it lasts (OJ, Scott Peterson, pick your poison).
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

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Offline lexi4

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #262 on: February 27, 2008, 09:06:17 PM »
I rarely wander into this section, but in light of recent forum drama, I have a question:

What is it about Anna Anderson that provokes such strong and varied reactions?

As someone who's more or less indifferent to the AA case, I'm truly curious. What is it about her that makes people willing to devote hundreds of hours and thousands of posts to proving or disproving her claim? How does she manage to evoke such passion from both sides of the argument? Most of all, why can't anyone seem to agree to disagree -- what harm does it do if someone chooses to believe the "wrong" side of the case?


I'd very much appreciate it if we could PLEASE try not to turn this into another debate about the woman's identity. I don't want to know why you're on whichever side of the case -- I only want to know why you feel so strongly about her in general.

Sarushka,
I am so glad you asked these questions as I have wondered the same thing myself. I've seen people be really cruel to one another on the forum regarding this topic. And I don't understand it. It all seems so inmature to me. I will be interested to see the responses you get.
Lexi
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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #263 on: February 28, 2008, 01:42:57 PM »
I feel strongly about the AA topic because I don't like frauds. It was also a very hurtful thing to do (to pretend to be a callously murdered, much loved, girl that is).

I think that Eddieboy_uk sums it up quite nicely.  It is quite simple to sum it up in the way he did. 

There are those people, too, who are abnormally committed to both sides and for no logical reason what so ever.  I believe that both sides took their positions because whether for or against AA, those people also seem to abnormally worship the Romanovs.

Offline Puppylove

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #264 on: February 28, 2008, 04:59:05 PM »
I feel strongly about the AA topic because I don't like frauds. It was also a very hurtful thing to do (to pretend to be a callously murdered, much loved, girl that is).

I think that Eddieboy_uk sums it up quite nicely.  It is quite simple to sum it up in the way he did. 

There are those people, too, who are abnormally committed to both sides and for no logical reason what so ever.  I believe that both sides took their positions because whether for or against AA, those people also seem to abnormally worship the Romanovs.

To be fair to the abnormal: a shared obsession is politely called "a common interest." Anyone not interested in the Romanovs (99.999 percent of the population or more) would probably regard a good chunk of the forum's posts as perilously close to abnormal, whether the post is about AA or Faberge.
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

"...and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Offline lexi4

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #265 on: February 28, 2008, 05:46:59 PM »
I feel strongly about the AA topic because I don't like frauds. It was also a very hurtful thing to do (to pretend to be a callously murdered, much loved, girl that is).

I think that Eddieboy_uk sums it up quite nicely.  It is quite simple to sum it up in the way he did. 

There are those people, too, who are abnormally committed to both sides and for no logical reason what so ever.  I believe that both sides took their positions because whether for or against AA, those people also seem to abnormally worship the Romanovs.

To be fair to the abnormal: a shared obsession is politely called "a common interest." Anyone not interested in the Romanovs (99.999 percent of the population or more) would probably regard a good chunk of the forum's posts as perilously close to abnormal, whether the post is about AA or Faberge.

I think that is an accurate assessment puppylove1
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Annie

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #266 on: February 28, 2008, 08:58:57 PM »
I have a very long term interest in the story, and the Romanovs, going back to my days in Jr. High. As an ex (semi) believer, I really feel like it's my duty and mission to try to show others the things that made me 'see the light'. After the DNA tests, and I knew for sure, I started exploring other explainations for some of the 'nagging questions' I used to wonder about. I had many "oooohhh!" moments as the 'mysteries' fell one by one. As I researched more, I realized that most of the myth surrounding AA was actually slanted to one side, and when you stop  accepting the list of goods at face value and investigate them further, it all makes sense and the house of mirrors shatters in the face of reality.  Many of the quotes and 'facts' listed by supporters were inaccurate or very misleading when you look into the details behind them. The incredible legend that formed around this story actually outgrew reality and took on a life of its own. However, underneath, it was just a man behind the curtains, like in the Wizard of Oz.

For me personally, because I can see so clearly now how it was all so overblown and false, I can't stand it when some people want to hold onto the old story so bad due to their agenda/ego/personal emotional attachement that they defy the realities of history and science and actively recruit and mislead new information seekers who honestly don't know any better and are only looking for answers. So as long as they are still out there, I will be too, telling the others side. This is why I made my website. Even though those of us who know the story well take for granted that it's over and AA was FS, there really isn't that much out there that explains that. Just do a google search. There are dozens of webpages and sites and books and movies out there which lead people to think she might be AN. Add that to the handful of still devoted followers who won't give up trying to win them over, and I still think there's a reason to fight on for truth and justice in history, and the honor and dignity of a murdered teenage girl who had her identity stolen by an unstable woman who (urged on by her avid backers) pranced around the world using her name for fame, possible financial gain, and at the very least, a meal ticket. FS lucked into a new identity just when she was so ready to be rid of her own that she tried to kill herself. But in the end, please, let Anastasia be remembered as herself, and not AA. As for the strong feelings, the AA supporters have them for AA and want to hold onto that fantasy, while those who are on the side of truth and reality do it to stop the myth from perpetuating into the future.

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #267 on: February 28, 2008, 09:32:28 PM »
Annie -- again, PLEASE don't use this thread as a place to discuss AA's identity or proselytise your side of the case. This is the third time I've had to make this request. I don't want to see this thread spiral into yet another debate about who AA was. If we can't stick to topic, I'm just going to ask FA to delete the thread.
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Offline Annie

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #268 on: February 28, 2008, 09:38:10 PM »
Annie -- again, PLEASE don't use this thread as a place to discuss AA's identity or proselytise your side of the case. This is the third time I've had to make this request. I don't want to see this thread spiral into yet another debate about who AA was. If we can't stick to topic, I'm just going to ask FA to delete the thread.

Oh, please just delete my post! I had a mod delete the other one because you complained. Just forget it. I give up.

Offline royaltybuff

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 6
« Reply #269 on: February 28, 2008, 10:24:23 PM »
I would venture to say that, like me, most people interested in the Romanovs today became interested because of the Anna Anderson story. Because it evokes the memory of coming to love a part of history, it is hard for some people to accept the evidence. It holds sentimental value for many. If the story isn't true then all the time they spent studying it and learning is somehow invalidated. Just a thought.