Author Topic: Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3  (Read 36897 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #270 on: August 13, 2007, 12:50:02 PM »
Annie,

I knew someone else out there had to be wondering that as well.

I hate to see others label FS the way they do.  The woman was mentally unwell and that is not a crime.  I don't think that she ruined AN's reputation at all, because no one who truly counted in the imperial family believed that she was their lost relative, so no damage was done there.

Those who supported her claim obviously didn't think that her behavior was out of line, or they wouldn't have supported her.  And I also believe, that when she began to act violently towards her "protectors" they realized their error in believing her to be AN and did the best they could to separate themselves from her and her claims, even if that meant putting her into an asylum.

When she became an embarrassment, they didn't announce publicly that AN was "crazy"  they said that the woman whom they had been protecting was "crazy" and she lost their support and her credibility.

I don't know why I want to know what motivated FS to jump into the canal, but I do.  I feel very sorry for her.  A good many people would like to be able to start over and make their life different. 

There is even a new TV show coming this fall in the US about just that subject. Its called Samantha, who?.  From the preview, I think it is going to be worse than terrible because it is a comedy and that might mean that she is the faking amnesia.  But true amnesia is no laughing matter. (Not that I believe FS had amnesia, I just believe that by the time she died she had lived for so long as "Anastasia" that she had come to believe the myth herself.)

FS was a troubled woman.  She was supported by those who were also troubled by their experiences either during the Russian Revolution or there after.  The murders in Yekaterinburg were so unthinkable that I am not surprised that so many wanted to believe that at least one person survived and that some, like the Dowager Empress, just refused to believe in the murders at all.

We think we know from reading about Yekaterinburg and the other executions what it was like to live through the "hell" that was Russia in 1918, but somehow, I doubt we have the smallest clue.  Somehow, the Romanovs watched the whole thing from the inside as it happened and many of them still didn't have a clue when it came time to pack up and get out in a hurry.

We also think we know what motivated FS to do what she did and what motivated those who supported her claims.  The truth is that we will never know more than the fact that she was not AN.  But as a human being FS deserves some degree of compassion in the broad spectrum of human suffering and misery.

Remember, she never brought the claims of her identity up herself.  She never filed a law suit of her own behalf and she lived in abject poverty and anonymity in Germany for a long time before she ended up in the US and married to Jack Manahan.

Compassion for FS - not the usual posting here on the AP.

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4757
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #271 on: August 13, 2007, 01:35:03 PM »
Annie,

I knew someone else out there had to be wondering that as well.

I hate to see others label FS the way they do.  The woman was mentally unwell and that is not a crime.  I don't think that she ruined AN's reputation at all, because no one who truly counted in the imperial family believed that she was their lost relative, so no damage was done there.

I think harm has been done, because too many people today, especially those who know the basic story through pop culture but not the historical facts, do tend to think of AA and AN as one in the same. There is no separation between the young girl who was murdered and the old woman in Charlottesville. If you don't believe me check out the 'Anastasia webring' of homemade sites, or google Anastasia. You would be surprised or appalled as I am, that it's passed off as a given that AA was AN. Not only is this wrong technically, I feel it robs the real AN of her own memory and is a form of 'identity theft.' It's so sad a girl had to get brutally murdered at 17 and only 'live on' as a weird old lady who wasn't really her. I am glad for this site's "My Name is Anastasia" for setting the record straight, sadly, it's in the vast minority.

Quote
Those who supported her claim obviously didn't think that her behavior was out of line, or they wouldn't have supported her.  And I also believe, that when she began to act violently towards her "protectors" they realized their error in believing her to be AN and did the best they could to separate themselves from her and her claims, even if that meant putting her into an asylum.

When she became an embarrassment, they didn't announce publicly that AN was "crazy"  they said that the woman whom they had been protecting was "crazy" and she lost their support and her credibility.

I really think it was one of two things, either they stuck with her regardless because they were hoping for cash, or they totally believed she had become traumatized by Ekaterinburg. But I can't imagine anyone not thinking she was 'out of line.'

Quote
FS was a troubled woman.  She was supported by those who were also troubled by their experiences either during the Russian Revolution or there after.  The murders in Yekaterinburg were so unthinkable that I am not surprised that so many wanted to believe that at least one person survived and that some, like the Dowager Empress, just refused to believe in the murders at all.

That's what is so sad. She took advantage of those people with a lie. She never experienced it.

Quote

I don't know why I want to know what motivated FS to jump into the canal, but I do.  I feel very sorry for her.  A good many people would like to be able to start over and make their life different. 

We also think we know what motivated FS to do what she did and what motivated those who supported her claims.  The truth is that we will never know more than the fact that she was not AN.  But as a human being FS deserves some degree of compassion in the broad spectrum of human suffering and misery.

Remember, she never brought the claims of her identity up herself.  She never filed a law suit of her own behalf and she lived in abject poverty and anonymity in Germany for a long time before she ended up in the US and married to Jack Manahan.


 (Not that I believe FS had amnesia, I just believe that by the time she died she had lived for so long as "Anastasia" that she had come to believe the myth herself.)

Compassion for FS - not the usual posting here on the AP.

You know up until recently I'd have agreed with you. I always said she wasn't a bad person, and that she had been used and eventually went so off the deep end she believed her own lies. But the more I read and find out, the more I see what a vile person she could be (see Lemur's post) and the way she treated people was unacceptable. The more I research the more I become convinced she knew exactly what was going on for a lot longer than I had thought before.  So while I do think it was sad she tried to kill herself and she must have been miserable, no matter what happened to her as AA was better than FS's life, which was apparently so bad she wanted to die, so she was better off.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 01:38:08 PM by Annie »

Offline dmitri

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2018
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #272 on: August 13, 2007, 05:26:24 PM »
Yes she deserves no sympathy at all. She was vile and clearly quite demented and a pathological liar.

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #273 on: August 13, 2007, 07:41:03 PM »
I think that at least at some point, the deception on AA's part was deliberate and she knew that she was pretending to be AN. A good example of this is the so-called "Da'rling" letter... Back before she knew English very well, AA was writing a letter to someone and apparently copied some of the wording from one of Alexandra's letters, also copying down the word "dar'ling" including the apostrophe between the "r" and the "l", which turned out not to be an apostrophe after all, but a comma from the line above... That's a very deceptive thing to do, if you ask me...  I saw this in a documentary about AA (Nova?), not sure if it been documented in any book...
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 07:43:54 PM by Helen_A »

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4757
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #274 on: August 13, 2007, 08:40:45 PM »
I think that at least at some point, the deception on AA's part was deliberate and she knew that she was pretending to be AN. A good example of this is the so-called "Da'rling" letter... Back before she knew English very well, AA was writing a letter to someone and apparently copied some of the wording from one of Alexandra's letters, also copying down the word "dar'ling" including the apostrophe between the "r" and the "l", which turned out not to be an apostrophe after all, but a comma from the line above... That's a very deceptive thing to do, if you ask me...  I saw this in a documentary about AA (Nova?), not sure if it been documented in any book...

Funny you should mention that, because I just now this minute got done rewatching my DVD of the NOVA special! You're exactly right, they showed a picture of AA's letter and Alexandra's and pointed out what she did. It was Dr. Berenberg-Gossler, the anti AA attorney who used it as an example of how she was a 'confidence man' type of fraud and a quick learner. Even though I just got done watching it I don't remember if it was him or someone else who compared her story to 'Pygmaliion.' (as I always say "My Fair Lady")

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4757
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #275 on: August 13, 2007, 08:43:44 PM »
On the NOVA special, they showed on camera the Schweitzers in the same room when Gill took the samples. The samples were put into a sealed plastic bag that could only be used once. So, combined with the above explaination by the employee, I really don't see how there was any time to even attempt a switch, and there couldn't possibly have been a mixup. I don't know why there are so many 'chain of custody' questions by the AA crowd, it's all right there. The only thing they could even attempt to claim is the Queen paid off Dr. Gill theory which is of course ridiculous. Besides this, 2 other labs got exactly the same results.

Offline dmitri

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2018
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #276 on: August 14, 2007, 03:03:12 AM »
It is well known there was no switch. The intensine sample was the correct one and came from Anna Anderson later known as Manahan. They did not match at all with any Romanov relative as they should have IF she had been the daughter of Alexandra Feodorovna. Of course she was a total fraud and it was proved for all time by DNA. She was of course related to Carl Maucher and was therefore Franziska Schankowska. Of course the lunatic fringe continue to say she was who she was not. They are like Anna Anderson overdue for a time in a mental asylum. 

Olishka~ Pincess

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #277 on: August 14, 2007, 11:34:07 AM »
While Anna Anderson was at Berlin in 1920 she claimed that she was seeking to find her aunt Irene and she refused to belive her but she was crying saying that she looked like Anastasia.

'Anderson's legal teams (like their opposition) were articulate and well organized. German Courts heard an almost endless procession of handwriting experts, historians and forensic scientists scrutinizing photographs and documents usually contradicting opposing depositions.

The fact she couldn't speak or read Russian, English or French at the time like all the tsar's daughters, was sufficient proof for former court tutor Pierre Gilliard she was an impostor, the fact she was unable to remember defining events of "her" life but could rattle off specific details of family bank accounts (including secret passwords) the real Anastasia would never have been told convinced even the most gullible.

Anderson's team tried to influence courts with hints of conspiracies, dubious evidence and expert testimony, pre-empting the O.J. Simpson style of legal deflection. That it would fail was inevitable, their last major legal defeat was in 1970, 50 years after Schanzkowska became Anastasia. By then most of her original supporters had given up and moved on with their lives, or died of old age waiting for a miracle.

Before she became Anastasia, Franziska Schanzkowska was mentally unstable. Incarcerated in two mental hospitals before disappearing in 1920, tantrums and breakdowns were regular occurrences and her most devoted supporters considered her impossible to live with.

Her psychiatric problems may have been caused or exacerbated by the serious head injuries suffered in 1916 from a hand grenade explosion, scares and injuries supporters attributed to Bolshevik brutality. During a visit to the United States in 1930 she suffered a breakdown and was certified "dangerous to herself and others" and committed to a mental hospital, not the first or last such incarceration.

During the 1920's she was almost constantly in and out of one German hospital or another, mental or general. We can only speculate whether during any of these frequent spells away from prying eyes if Anderson underwent cosmetic surgery of some sort, to create or enhance features and flaws to match those of the real Anastasia.

Her being a lost Grand Duchess was, not surprisingly, suggested by another mental patient (Clara Peuthert) during her incarceration at the Dalldorf Asylum who suggested she was the Grand Duchess Tatiana. At first she accepted her identity, however the realisation she was considerably shorter was a factor in her switch to Anastasia.'

from an article. There was a photo that was taken of her when FS was 16? I wonder if that will show that Anastasia looked nothing like AA. I mean it says she was mentally stable before she became A.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 11:43:30 AM by Elizabeth~Princess »

Offline Lemur

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • reach for the top!
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #278 on: August 14, 2007, 11:38:14 AM »
That's a great article, Elizabeth! Do you have a link? Who wrote it? Very interesting!

She wasn't 16 she was 20. The picture was taken in 1916 and FS was born in 1896. That is a common error about her age in the photo. People tend to give AA AN's age instead of FS's.

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #279 on: August 14, 2007, 11:44:50 AM »
There was a photo that was taken of her when FS was 16?

I believe this is the photo they are referring to, the only known photo of FS before she transformed into "Anna Anderson":



She looks just about 20 years old...

Olishka~ Pincess

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #280 on: August 14, 2007, 11:54:06 AM »
There was a photo that was taken of her when FS was 16?

I believe this is the photo they are referring to, the only known photo of FS before she transformed into "Anna Anderson":



She looks just about 20 years old...
thank you very much Helen anyway that is the picture she does not even look 20 too old to me i think she is in her mid 30's anyway i believe that is her as 20 the problem is she does not look young enough, anyway if she looked like that before she claimed to be Anastasia then she needs to look at herself again then too see how old looking she is compared to a much younger looking peron. There is no way she could have aged like that and then look like this in 1916 it does not make any sense at . LOOK THIS IS A PHOTO OF ANASTASIA IN 1916 so are you convinced that is the same person still, hopefully not? If you do then something is wrong either that or they just do not want to believe in the facts.

John Godl wrote it.
Thanks Lemar,The link it is:
http://www.serfes.org/royal/annaanderson.htm

THE REAL ANASTASIA IN 1916:

see that is a total different person.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 12:06:16 PM by Elizabeth~Princess »

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #281 on: August 14, 2007, 12:07:31 PM »
...thank you very much Helen anyway that is the picture she does not even look 20 too old to me i think she is in her mid 30's anyway i believe that is her as 20 the problem is she does not look young enough...

The excuse always used was that she went through a lot (her family being murdered by the Bolsheviks and all) and this is why she looked so much older than she was... IMO, looking older was the least of her problems... it was a lot more difficult to explain why she didn't resemble Anastasia at all....

Olishka~ Pincess

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #282 on: August 14, 2007, 12:43:37 PM »
...thank you very much Helen anyway that is the picture she does not even look 20 too old to me i think she is in her mid 30's anyway i believe that is her as 20 the problem is she does not look young enough...

The excuse always used was that she went through a lot (her family being murdered by the Bolsheviks and all) and this is why she looked so much older than she was... IMO, looking older was the least of her problems... it was a lot more difficult to explain why she didn't resemble Anastasia at all....
I heard that excuse many times the AA suporters are using that excuse that she and her family went through many problems and she aged while her family was executed and she was injured and that altered her looks, their saying that I think is too make it seem and prove that she is Anastasia obviously they want to think so they can even support Anna Andersons claim when she is realy a false fraud to my opinion.

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4757
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #283 on: August 14, 2007, 01:26:02 PM »
...thank you very much Helen anyway that is the picture she does not even look 20 too old to me i think she is in her mid 30's anyway i believe that is her as 20 the problem is she does not look young enough...

The excuse always used was that she went through a lot (her family being murdered by the Bolsheviks and all) and this is why she looked so much older than she was... IMO, looking older was the least of her problems... it was a lot more difficult to explain why she didn't resemble Anastasia at all....
I heard that excuse many times the AA suporters are using that excuse that she and her family went through many problems and she aged while her family was executed and she was injured and that altered her looks, their saying that I think is too make it seem and prove that she is Anastasia obviously they want to think so they can even support Anna Andersons claim when she is realy a false fraud to my opinion.

Oh yes they say a rifle butt to the face and a bayonet in the mouth changed her looks ::) That's about as realistic as the time when I was a kid and my poor kitten died when I was at school and my family replaced it but they couldn't find one the same color so they tried to tell me they took him to the vet and the medicine made his fur and eyes change colors ::) If it was just injuries it would look like a disfigured version of Anastasia's own face not a completely different person's face. They also use her bad experience in "Ekaterinburg" as an excuse for her insanity, instability and extreme behavior ::) But some people actually bought that excuse and felt sorry for her, and still do :-X

The dumbest thing is if anyone took a bayonet in the face they wouldn't have lived! Nobody in the execution squad was looking to just puncture your lip, they were out to run them through!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 01:28:28 PM by Annie »

Olishka~ Pincess

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #284 on: August 14, 2007, 01:38:45 PM »
...thank you very much Helen anyway that is the picture she does not even look 20 too old to me i think she is in her mid 30's anyway i believe that is her as 20 the problem is she does not look young enough...

The excuse always used was that she went through a lot (her family being murdered by the Bolsheviks and all) and this is why she looked so much older than she was... IMO, looking older was the least of her problems... it was a lot more difficult to explain why she didn't resemble Anastasia at all....
I heard that excuse many times the AA suporters are using that excuse that she and her family went through many problems and she aged while her family was executed and she was injured and that altered her looks, their saying that I think is too make it seem and prove that she is Anastasia obviously they want to think so they can even support Anna Andersons claim when she is realy a false fraud to my opinion.

Oh yes they say a rifle butt to the face and a bayonet in the mouth changed her looks ::) That's about as realistic as the time when I was a kid and my poor kitten died when I was at school and my family replaced it but they couldn't find one the same color so they tried to tell me they took him to the vet and the medicine made his fur and eyes change colors ::) If it was just injuries it would look like a disfigured version of Anastasia's own face not a completely different person's face. They also use her bad experience in "Ekaterinburg" as an excuse for her insanity, instability and extreme behavior ::) But some people actually bought that excuse and felt sorry for her, and still do :-X

The dumbest thing is if anyone took a bayonet in the face they wouldn't have lived! Nobody in the execution squad was looking to just puncture your lip, they were out to run them through!
I feel so sad your kitty cat died. :-[ They always use that excuse mostly likey becuase as you said they feel sorry for her and wanted to feel like it was a good thing to be a supporter for Anna Anderson that is what i also am thinking too. Honestly I think she had a very sad condition but she did other things that was terrible like pretend to obe someone else your not and lie. I realy do not have any sympathy for AA I realy think is is her own problem and fault I mean she tried to kill herself. I am trying to say it is sad about her mental illness then it is realy irratating about what she tried to do pretend to be someone else's identity.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 01:41:12 PM by Elizabeth~Princess »