Author Topic: Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3  (Read 37607 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4757
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #255 on: August 11, 2007, 09:59:08 PM »
Well in the case of AA it was so very easy to tell. She was such a fake, fraud, whatever you like to call someone who deliberately sets out to deceive. What a pathetic creature she was. 

And you can't libel the dead! 

I wonder how you can be so sure of her motivations.  If she was mentally ill, as some claim, then perhaps she was unaware that she was not Anastasia.  And, in any case, no one believed her.  If she was a fraud and people believed her that would have been completely different.   AN's family are a different matter.  They have the right to be as outraged and bitter as you appear to be. 

AN's family do have a right to be outraged that they were framed as liars who denied her for money when it was only because they really knew it wasn't her. The way Botkin libeled Xenia, Olga and others in his books would be grounds for a lawsuit today, should have been back then. Even to this day AA supporters accuse the royal family of rigging the DNA tests which is also slanderous against all the scientists. But say one bad thing about Botkin or AA and watch them go into a rage.

AA was not a very nice person in the earlier days, turning on her supporters, strangling Annie Jenning's parrot, and making up malicious accusations against those who denied her (Bux a traitor, Ernie a spy, Yussoupov tried to murder her, Mountbatten poisoned Harriet Rathlef, Olga and Ernie greedly liars, etc.) IMO if she did believe she was AN it wasn't until she was very old and senile. She knew exactly what she was doing back when she hid her head under the sheets and refused to meet with people who could expose her, like Xenia's sons. The more I read of the details of her claim, the more convinced I am it was a cold calculating plot to get money, and while she went along with it, she was used, because she was too stupid to figure anything out for herself. Whatever they told her to do, she went along with it. It really was a scam and a snake oil sale, and there is nothing to be proud of, and certainly nothing to pity AA for. I feel more sorry for her victims, even the entire German court system, and anyone else used and misused along the way.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 10:01:15 PM by Annie »

Olishka~ Pincess

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #256 on: August 11, 2007, 10:16:42 PM »
Well in the case of AA it was so very easy to tell. She was such a fake, fraud, whatever you like to call someone who deliberately sets out to deceive. What a pathetic creature she was. 

And you can't libel the dead! 

I wonder how you can be so sure of her motivations.  If she was mentally ill, as some claim, then perhaps she was unaware that she was not Anastasia.  And, in any case, no one believed her.  If she was a fraud and people believed her that would have been completely different.   AN's family are a different matter.  They have the right to be as outraged and bitter as you appear to be. 

AN's family do have a right to be outraged that they were framed as liars who denied her for money when it was only because they really knew it wasn't her. The way Botkin libeled Xenia, Olga and others in his books would be grounds for a lawsuit today, should have been back then. Even to this day AA supporters accuse the royal family of rigging the DNA tests which is also slanderous against all the scientists. But say one bad thing about Botkin or AA and watch them go into a rage.

AA was not a very nice person in the earlier days, turning on her supporters, strangling Annie Jenning's parrot, and making up malicious accusations against those who denied her (Bux a traitor, Ernie a spy, Yussoupov tried to murder her, Mountbatten poisoned Harriet Rathlef, Olga and Ernie greedly liars, etc.) IMO if she did believe she was AN it wasn't until she was very old and senile. She knew exactly what she was doing back when she hid her head under the sheets and refused to meet with people who could expose her, like Xenia's sons. The more I read of the details of her claim, the more convinced I am it was a cold calculating plot to get money, and while she went along with it, she was used, because she was too stupid to figure anything out for herself. Whatever they told her to do, she went along with it. It really was a scam and a snake oil sale, and there is nothing to be proud of, and certainly nothing to pity AA for. I feel more sorry for her victims, even the entire German court system, and anyone else used and misused along the way.
AA is a crazy woman she had mental health problems knowing that many did not believe that she was Anastasia becuase of her phsyco and mental ways and for the fact she did not resemble A. Her whole thing was to get money off of Anastasia.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 10:21:10 PM by Elizabeth~Princess »

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4757
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #257 on: August 11, 2007, 10:23:17 PM »

AA is a crazy woman she had mental health problems knowing that many did not believe that she was Anastasia becuase of her phsyco and mental ways and for the fact she did not resemble A. Her whole thing was to get money off of Anastasia.

Yes and it's so sad that the real Anastasia is remembered as being this crazy lady and it's not true. She deserves to be remembered for herself. This is another reason it's bad to make out like AA is AN. It's unfair to AN's memory.

Offline PrincessSophie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #258 on: August 11, 2007, 10:31:54 PM »
Well in the case of AA it was so very easy to tell. She was such a fake, fraud, whatever you like to call someone who deliberately sets out to deceive. What a pathetic creature she was. 

And you can't libel the dead! 

I wonder how you can be so sure of her motivations.  If she was mentally ill, as some claim, then perhaps she was unaware that she was not Anastasia.  And, in any case, no one believed her.  If she was a fraud and people believed her that would have been completely different.   AN's family are a different matter.  They have the right to be as outraged and bitter as you appear to be. 

AN's family do have a right to be outraged that they were framed as liars who denied her for money when it was only because they really knew it wasn't her. The way Botkin libeled Xenia, Olga and others in his books would be grounds for a lawsuit today, should have been back then. Even to this day AA supporters accuse the royal family of rigging the DNA tests which is also slanderous against all the scientists. But say one bad thing about Botkin or AA and watch them go into a rage.

AA was not a very nice person in the earlier days, turning on her supporters, strangling Annie Jenning's parrot, and making up malicious accusations against those who denied her (Bux a traitor, Ernie a spy, Yussoupov tried to murder her, Mountbatten poisoned Harriet Rathlef, Olga and Ernie greedly liars, etc.) IMO if she did believe she was AN it wasn't until she was very old and senile. She knew exactly what she was doing back when she hid her head under the sheets and refused to meet with people who could expose her, like Xenia's sons. The more I read of the details of her claim, the more convinced I am it was a cold calculating plot to get money, and while she went along with it, she was used, because she was too stupid to figure anything out for herself. Whatever they told her to do, she went along with it. It really was a scam and a snake oil sale, and there is nothing to be proud of, and certainly nothing to pity AA for. I feel more sorry for her victims, even the entire German court system, and anyone else used and misused along the way.

I agree with you Annie.  The grief AN's family went through (and is still going through) is unfathomable and inexcusable - particularly if it was, as you say, a deliberate act.  And I don't doubt your statements that it was.

Thanks for filling in some details for me.  It is much appreciated! :) :) :)

Sophie

Olishka~ Pincess

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #259 on: August 11, 2007, 10:46:59 PM »

AA is a crazy woman she had mental health problems knowing that many did not believe that she was Anastasia becuase of her phsyco and mental ways and for the fact she did not resemble A. Her whole thing was to get money off of Anastasia.

Yes and it's so sad that the real Anastasia is remembered as being this crazy lady and it's not true. She deserves to be remembered for herself. This is another reason it's bad to make out like AA is AN. It's unfair to AN's memory.
I agree with you Annie! It is a pity that Anastasia has to be remembered as a crazy woman all becuase of AA. She realy messed up Anastasia's reputation I am sure Anastasia would want revenge on AA if she was living during the time. The point is that AA should never ever be remembered as Anastasia. I know people want to believe that the real Anastasia is crazy and has an metal health problem but that is simply a lie. Another person should no be blamed under someone else's problems and troubles it is just wrong! >:( Realy it is making Anastasia's life look realy bad.  I realy think AA made a fool out of Anastasia. She sure got the pleasure of doing that.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 11:01:24 PM by Elizabeth~Princess »

ferrymansdaughter

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #260 on: August 13, 2007, 04:09:03 AM »


AA was not a very nice person in the earlier days, turning on her supporters, strangling Annie Jenning's parrot,

Annie,

As I have said before, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion about this case, but please  get your facts right. She did not strangle Annie Jenning's parrot. She accidentally killed (stepped on) one of her own parakeets!


Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4757
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #261 on: August 13, 2007, 06:10:27 AM »


AA was not a very nice person in the earlier days, turning on her supporters, strangling Annie Jenning's parrot,

Annie,

As I have said before, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion about this case, but please  get your facts right. She did not strangle Annie Jenning's parrot. She accidentally killed (stepped on) one of her own parakeets!



I read that only recently in a book, I will find and quote it as soon as I have time. The step on story was something different, and how can one step on a parrot, they can fly?! How do you know either of the stories are 'facts'? Nothing but relayed rubble through several people over time. Maybe accurate, maybe not. You hold too strongly to 'facts' that may not be.

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #262 on: August 13, 2007, 07:11:07 AM »
As I have said many times before, I always had a hard time believing that AA was AN because of  AA's slovenly ways and rude and disturbing behavior.  It just didn't seem right to me that someone who was brought up to be a grand duchess would descend to that kind of level no matter what she had been though.  I can't even imagine how bad the situation in Ipatiev House was and I hope that I never have to know for sure.

But, I guess the question that remains for me is, which came first?  FS deciding to become someone she wasn't, or someone who knew AN deciding that FS was a good candidate for the job?  Its kind of the "chicken or egg" theory.

And why or all whys did FS decide to throw herself into a canal?  I think that is the ultimate question that needs to be answered because if she hadn't thrown herself into that canal and then been put into an asylum, she wouldn't have been in a position for anyone to "discover" her and begin to spread the tales that followed.

Unless throwing herself into the canal was a "first step" in a whole chain of events.  But then that presupposes that someone with imperial knowledge had already found FS and convinced her to begin the whole charade by jumping in.  That sounds too complicated.



Offline dmitri

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2018
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #263 on: August 13, 2007, 09:03:27 AM »
It's really all very simple. FS = AA - DNA proven and beyond doubt anymore, acquired "imperial knowledge" AFTER throwing herself in the canal. She was exposed to magazines about royalty in the hospital and information from others. My own late Grandmother told me about magzines from Germany, sent before and after world war one, that her own family sent her from Berlin which had stacks of photos and information on various Royal and Imperial families and in substantial detail.  She even kept some and showed them to me. You hardly had to be an "insider" to gain such information. There is nothing at all mysterious about any of it. People who knew the imperial residences as only imperial and royal highnesses can, are on record stating quite categorically that much of AA's information about imperial residences was quite inaccurate. This is hardly surprising given that her knowledge came from magazines and servant class people associated with the imperial court. She was not a Romanov and never ever was. Grand Duchess Anastasia clearly was murdered with the rest of her family in Ekaterinburg in the Ipatiev House. There is no room for the slightest doubt on the matter. All the rest is the stuff that lies and distortion are all about. You don't have to be terribly bright to work it out.

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4757
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #264 on: August 13, 2007, 09:22:53 AM »

But, I guess the question that remains for me is, which came first?  FS deciding to become someone she wasn't, or someone who knew AN deciding that FS was a good candidate for the job?  Its kind of the "chicken or egg" theory.

And why or all whys did FS decide to throw herself into a canal?  I think that is the ultimate question that needs to be answered because if she hadn't thrown herself into that canal and then been put into an asylum, she wouldn't have been in a position for anyone to "discover" her and begin to spread the tales that followed.


Unless throwing herself into the canal was a "first step" in a whole chain of events.  But then that presupposes that someone with imperial knowledge had already found FS and convinced her to begin the whole charade by jumping in.  That sounds too complicated.


This is what I have been trying to explore for years, but every time you start asking these questions, the AA supporters pop back in trying to convince you she wasn't FS and the whole AA/AN/FS mess takes over another thread. These questions are the only mystery left, that and who helped and what were their motives and how they did it. Personally I believe she never had any idea to pretend to be a GD until Clara showed her the magazine (and thanks Dmitri for the info on the German mags!) She was after all there for 2 years before the claim started (and no I don't count that alleged secret comment that allegedly happened in 1921, the nurse herself said 1922 then later said it was a 'mistake') As far as her being a good 'candidate', no I don't think anyone would have chosen her out of a lineup of actresses, but she was in the right situation at the right time. She was claiming to be AN, and there were people who then got the idea that they could make a lot of money off of it and decided to groom her for the role. Even the books in her favor, Kurth's and Lovell's, tell that she wasn't really interested in her own claim, it was others pushing it for her and starting the court case, she was just going along with it. I don't  think anyone was out there looking for an "Anastasia" as they were in the cartoon, I think they got the idea after hearing about her claim and realizing how they could use her that way.

Whatever made the real Franziska jump into the canal, be it the loss of her child, fiancee', a line of crappy jobs with no future, and/or other factors, I'm sure it must have been very sad. I really believe FS wanted to die, and  so  she did- when she got to the asylum she never admitted to her identity and had apparently stopped being herself. Then when she saw the chance to live again as "Anastasia" she jumped at the chance. IMO she committed metaphorical suicide and took on the identity of a dead person which she never gave up.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 09:25:13 AM by Annie »

Olishka~ Pincess

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #265 on: August 13, 2007, 09:37:45 AM »

But, I guess the question that remains for me is, which came first?  FS deciding to become someone she wasn't, or someone who knew AN deciding that FS was a good candidate for the job?  Its kind of the "chicken or egg" theory.

And why or all whys did FS decide to throw herself into a canal?  I think that is the ultimate question that needs to be answered because if she hadn't thrown herself into that canal and then been put into an asylum, she wouldn't have been in a position for anyone to "discover" her and begin to spread the tales that followed.


Unless throwing herself into the canal was a "first step" in a whole chain of events.  But then that presupposes that someone with imperial knowledge had already found FS and convinced her to begin the whole charade by jumping in.  That sounds too complicated.


This is what I have been trying to explore for years, but every time you start asking these questions, the AA supporters pop back in trying to convince you she wasn't FS and the whole AA/AN/FS mess takes over another thread. These questions are the only mystery left, that and who helped and what were their motives and how they did it. Personally I believe she never had any idea to pretend to be a GD until Clara showed her the magazine (and thanks Dmitri for the info on the German mags!) She was after all there for 2 years before the claim started (and no I don't count that alleged secret comment that allegedly happened in 1921, the nurse herself said 1922 then later said it was a 'mistake') As far as her being a good 'candidate', no I don't think anyone would have chosen her out of a lineup of actresses, but she was in the right situation at the right time. She was claiming to be AN, and there were people who then got the idea that they could make a lot of money off of it and decided to groom her for the role. Even the books in her favor, Kurth's and Lovell's, tell that she wasn't really interested in her own claim, it was others pushing it for her and starting the court case, she was just going along with it. I don't  think anyone was out there looking for an "Anastasia" as they were in the cartoon, I think they got the idea after hearing about her claim and realizing how they could use her that way.

Whatever made the real Franziska jump into the canal, be it the loss of her child, fiancee', a line of crappy jobs with no future, and/or other factors, I'm sure it must have been very sad. I really believe FS wanted to die, and  so  she did- when she got to the asylum she never admitted to her identity and had apparently stopped being herself. Then when she saw the chance to live again as "Anastasia" she jumped at the chance. IMO she committed metaphorical suicide and took on the identity of a dead person which she never gave up.

She is realy insane. I mean she is so pathetic and worthless AA no wonder she commited suiside she was mentally challenged and retarded and physical crazy that is why she tried to kill herself by trying to drown in the water in Germany around in 1920 the police saved her. She realy messed up Anastasia's reputation a whole lot. It is very sad she made a complete fool out of Anastasia. I mean she just messed up alot of things. There was defantly nothing special or good about AA the only thing that is of her is her crazy crap, stupid nonsense and lies she did she diserves not to go to heaven for all the lies she made up. She has a very insane mentality.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 09:43:32 AM by Elizabeth~Princess »

Offline Lemur

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • reach for the top!
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #266 on: August 13, 2007, 10:29:40 AM »
She is realy insane. I mean she is so pathetic and worthless AA no wonder she commited suiside she was mentally challenged and retarded and physical crazy that is why she tried to kill herself by trying to drown in the water in Germany around in 1920 the police saved her. She realy messed up Anastasia's reputation a whole lot. It is very sad she made a complete fool out of Anastasia. I mean she just messed up alot of things. There was defantly nothing special or good about AA the only thing that is of her is her crazy crap, stupid nonsense and lies she did she diserves not to go to heaven for all the lies she made up. She has a very insane mentality.

You'll get no argument from me. From Massie's "Romanovs: The Final Chapter", page 182 paperback:

Early in 1929, she moved in with Annie B. Jennings, a wealthy Park Avenue spinster eager to have the daughter of the Tsar under her roof. For 18 months, the onetime Fraulein Unbekannat was the toast of NYC society, a fixture at dinner parties, luncheons, tea dances and operas. The nthe pattern of destructive behavior reasserted itself. She complained about her room and her food. She developed tantrums. She attacked servants with sticks and ran back and forth across the roof naked. She threw things out the window. She stood in an aisle of a dept. store and told the crowd how badly Miss Jennings was treating her. Finally, Judge Peter Schmuck of the NY Surpreme Court signed an order, and two men knocked down her locked door and carried her off to a mental hospital. She remained in Four Winds Sanatorium in Katonah, NY, for over a year.

Olishka~ Pincess

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #267 on: August 13, 2007, 10:36:15 AM »
She is realy insane. I mean she is so pathetic and worthless AA no wonder she commited suiside she was mentally challenged and retarded and physical crazy that is why she tried to kill herself by trying to drown in the water in Germany around in 1920 the police saved her. She realy messed up Anastasia's reputation a whole lot. It is very sad she made a complete fool out of Anastasia. I mean she just messed up alot of things. There was defantly nothing special or good about AA the only thing that is of her is her crazy crap, stupid nonsense and lies she did she diserves not to go to heaven for all the lies she made up. She has a very insane mentality.

You'll get no argument from me. From Massie's "Romanovs: The Final Chapter", page 182 paperback:

She complained about her room and her food. She developed tantrums. She attacked servants with sticks and ran back and forth across the roof naked. She threw things out the window. She stood in an aisle of a dept. store and told the crowd how badly Miss Jennings was treating her. Finally, Judge Peter Schmuck of the NY Surpreme Court signed an order, and two men knocked down her locked door and carried her off to a mental hospital. She remained in Four Winds Sanatorium in Katonah, NY, for over a year.
Yes, I sure will not have an argument from you. Once again thanks for you information Lumar very helpful! ;) That right there proves how crazy she is. I have three things to say for her Ungrateful, rude and hatful. I mean she is a maniac going on thre roof naked and attacking people it just shows how she do not have manners or respect.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 10:43:24 AM by Elizabeth~Princess »

Offline Temperance

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #268 on: August 13, 2007, 10:55:45 AM »
I agree with Annie. She did take on the identity of a dead person. What I don't understand is why so many people believed her for so long. One glance at Anna Anderson and any sane person can see she doesn't even begin to resemble Anastasia.

Offline Lemur

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • reach for the top!
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA #3
« Reply #269 on: August 13, 2007, 11:41:00 AM »
"That's not possible and here's why"

This is the explaination of Penny Jenkins, who was responsible for Martha Jefferson Hospital's medical records, including blood and tissue samples. Massie, The Romanovs the Final Chapter, page 245 softcover:

When asked of the possibility of 'substitution' of the tissue at the hospital, here was her reply:

"We have two separate backups. In 1979 when Dr. Shrum did surgery on Mrs. Manahan, we took slides of the tissue, in addition to preserving in paraffin the larger blocks of the excised tissue. Taking slides when doing surgery is routine, you take it, you look at it, and say, there is cancer, or it's not cancer, or it's an infection or whatever. We preserve these slides in one place and the paraffin wax in a totally different place.

"Furthermore, when we moved the tissue from storage back to the hospital in early 1993, Dr, Thomas Dudley, the assistant pathologist, cut some new slides from one of the blocks. We compared these new slides cut in 1993 with those slides cut in 1979 and they were identical. If someone had swapped them in storage during the last couple of years, they would not have matched. And the chance that anybody was able to get to both locations and switch both slides without access to specimen numbers is impossible."