Author Topic: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life  (Read 58454 times)

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Offline Zenaida1861

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Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2005, 12:50:19 PM »
But the Yusupovs considered themselves superior, I wonder how they felt about that?

Offline ashanti01

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Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
« Reply #61 on: February 08, 2005, 12:45:11 AM »
As anyone ever wondered if Felix Senior married Zeneida as a way of climbing the social latter and her wealth?

The thought just hit me as I was re-reading a post about Felix's possible involvement with another man. I just started thinking how did he feel about his wife? Its very odvious many men were basically throwing themselves at her feet, but she chose him yet I have never read anything that defines his feelings for her.



Offline katusha

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You are talking about my great, great grandfather and as far as I know he wasn't so much the natural son but the product of a marganatic marriiage. His tutor, I think, was English, and accompanied him to Russia, where his aunt was Tsarina. He had for protection, his tutor's name. If they have to be discussed, the facts have to be right.

Offline Valmont

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Really??.. And why don't you enlight us  with your family history so we can bring some light  into the darkness.... and get things "straighten" ...

Let's start with your Great Great Grandfather.....How did the story begin???
Arturo Vega-Llausás

Offline Arleen

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I am interested too Katuska.

..Arleen

Offline pentetorri

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what happened, Katusha? where are the facts that you so much care?

At this pace, I am the great great great..... grandson of Cleopatra.

Offline brnbg aka: liljones1968

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what happened, Katusha? where are the facts that you so much care?

At this pace, I am the great great great..... grandson of Cleopatra.




i second that....


besides, katusha, there's no reason to be so condescending or holier-than-thou about things.    what i wrote was what i had read.    i have never, ever claimed be an authority on any subject and i am always willing to accept criticism & suggestions etc.   i can even handle being told i'm wrong ( i don't like it, but i can handle it, and even accept it)....but i, of course, need proof that i am wrong.

i have read every biography of the junior Feliks (husband of Irina) that i know of; i have read his autobiography; and i have read the Ferrand history of the Yusupov & Sumarokov-Elston families, and i'm sorry, but nowhere in any of those volumes do i remember reading any part of what you claim to be the real "facts".     a morganatic marriage?
just how likely is that, really?    wouldn't the junior Feliks have latched onto that fact immediately and written it into his narrative?


katusha, whoever you are, and whoever your ancestors may, or may not be, please be more polite next time, alright?    i know i would appreciate it.  
"when i die, i hope i go like my grandfather --
peacefully in my sleep; not screaming & in terror,
like the passengers in his car."

-- anonymous
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Offline Forum Admin

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I must second what Brian wrote.  I meant no disrespect to your family at all.  The most complete bio of the family and most "objective" is the Ferrand book, and I was just reporting what M. Ferrand wrote.  If your family has better evidence and information, I am certain that everyone here would be excited to have it.

FA

Offline Valmont

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Some how I have the feeling we are dealing with another ...How should I call them...?.... I do not want to sound disrepectfull and call them "looneys".....
But to be honest.. I cannot find another word to describe them better than that..
Unless proven differently, I think  Katusha  could be another "Rodger like" Yussupov's relative.....
Arturo Vega-Llausás

Offline brnbg aka: liljones1968

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Some how I have the feeling we are dealing with another ...How should I call them...?.... I do not want to sound disrepectfull and call them "looneys".....
But to be honest.. I cannot find another word to describe them better than that..
Unless proven differently, I think  Katusha  could be another "Rodger like" Yussupov's relative.....



that possibility had crossed my mind too.....
"when i die, i hope i go like my grandfather --
peacefully in my sleep; not screaming & in terror,
like the passengers in his car."

-- anonymous
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Offline Tasha_R

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If I may, I believe folks might be a bit hasty here in condemning Katusha.  Please remember that not everyone on this forum speaks English as well as everyone else and what may come across as being impolite may instead be misunderstood on either end.

If you go to the thread on the Elston genealogy, you will see that there is the senior Feliks is descended from Countess Andrassey and Baron von Hugel.  While I believe the Forum Administrator posted this from the Jacques Ferrand book, it's information does not map to what Felix Youssouppof wrote himself in "Lost Splendor" about his being descended from Countess Tiesenhausen and a liaison between the Countess and Prince Friedrich Wilhelm IV of Prussia.

There are some genealogies on the web that show him to be descended instead from a liaison between Countess Andrassey (a Hungarian Countess - Count Andrassey, although I'm not certain if this was her husband or not, was a strong political figure in Hungaria during Sissi's time) and Prince Wilhelm I of Prussia.

So, to my mind, there certainly are some discrepancies/mysteries to be cleared up here, and I'm not sure that I would believe one author over another.

If one were to compare pictures of the senior Feliks to either of the Prussian rulers, he most certainly more resembles Wilhelm - but who says the son has to look more like the father than the father's brother?

Remember, too, that Felix Youssouppof spoke of the history (an actual book or document) on that side having been lost in his book "Lost Splendor".

I mean no disrespect, especially to Valmont and the Forum Administrator, whom I know to be both very knowledgable in this area.  However, in asking your questions the way you did of Katusha, I fear she may not wish to answer them - nor would I blame her.

I know that the Forum has been flooded with "claimants", and it gets a bit tiresome, yes.  But there are eyes of those who truly are related looking at this as well, who might be reticent to "speak up", especially if the welcome they are given is as such.

Just a thought.

Best to all,
Tasha

Offline Forum Admin

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Here is exactly what M. Ferrand says (am translating from the French, my copy is the original French version, not the English translation)
"Ever since I believe I have exhaustively examined all of the evidence available establishing that Elston was not the son of Catherine Tiesenhausen and a Prussian Prince, but rather was the natural born son of Baron Charles von Hugel and Josephine nee Comtesse Andrassy, wife of Comte Nicholas Forgach von Ghymes.  

"Elston's son, Felix, inherited all of Catherine's papers, and so one would think he might have examined their contents. For one reason or another, perhaps because of his marriage to Princess Zenaida Yussupov, he decided to keep them secret in order to give credence to the Hohenzollern/Elston legend.  The enormous fortune Zenaida inherited gave him immense prestige throughout Europe. ... It is entirely possible that it was under Princess Zinaida's influence that the Comte de Sonis had "ommitted" all of Dolly's letters (Dolly being Elston's sister) mentioning Elston's origin "in order to give credence to an origin for Elston far more flattering than he had in reality". ... "If Felix Elston was born in 1820 and if his father really had been a Prince of the House of Hohenzollern he would have actually been recognized as such during his life.  King Frederich-Wilhelm II of Prussia, who died in 1797, had, with three different mistresses, nine illegitimate children who were all given noble titles.  The two illegitimite children of Prince August of Prussia (1779-1843) and Fredericka Wichman were received into the Prussian nobility under the name of "von Waldenburg".  To have the King Wilhelm II or Prince Wilhelm of Prussia or the brother of the King Wilhelm IV as Elston's father, there is simply no doubt that he would have been received into the Prussian nobility in the same manner.  This is confirmed by Mr. Addington who is an expert in the geneaology of the House of Hohenzollern.
...
Unfortunately we can not establish beyond doubt the name of Elston's mother until such time as  the soviet authorities make Countess Forgach's letters to Elston accessable. However, I believe that I may positively confirm the his mother was not Catherine Tiesenhausen and in this I have the support of Serge Nabukov.  Except for Prince Felix III Yussopov, none of the other grandchildren of Felix I had ever accepted Catherine as their grandmother. Elston's grandson Michael Nicholaievich Count Sumarkov Elston has told me that he asked his uncle Felix II about the origins of Elston.  He answered that his father had tried, as well as the other children, but could not dig up the actual origins. However my grandfather, as well as the Sumarkov parents knew full well that Elston's mother's name was Forgach.

In my opinion, Elston never sought to hide his mother's name. It was his father's name he hid in order to protect his legitimate family.

Offline brnbg aka: liljones1968

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If I may, I believe folks might be a bit hasty here in condemning Katusha.  Please remember that not everyone on this forum speaks English as well as everyone else and what may come across as being impolite may instead be misunderstood on either end.
(....)
I mean no disrespect, especially to Valmont and the Forum Administrator, whom I know to be both very knowledgable in this area.  However, in asking your questions the way you did of Katusha, I fear she may not wish to answer them - nor would I blame her.

I know that the Forum has been flooded with "claimants", and it gets a bit tiresome, yes.  But there are eyes of those who truly are related looking at this as well, who might be reticent to "speak up", especially if the welcome they are given is as such.

Just a thought.

Best to all,
Tasha



y'know, you make several very good points.   as often as my poorly worded statements have been misunderstood (here and in life), i probably should have been less quick to assume she was being condescending...   i must admit, though, when my Southern blood & upbringing tells me that someone is being condescending, they usually are.    although it's much more difficult to judge these days (ie: the internet vs face-to-face).    then again, my Southern manners should have kicked in and reminded me that a gentleman always, always gives a lady the benefit-of-a-doubt.    (i may be, and am, many things....but i'm always {well, usually} a gentleman).

and you're correct about others (true descendants) being hesitant in the face of such glaring doubt.    however, no-one can simply expect to be believed.    if we automatically gave credence to every statement of descent, this forum would probably be crawling with would-be princes & princesses, each one basking in the glow of our misplaced awe & admiration.   and while i believe that, in most cases, no-one should ever feel the need to prove who they are to anyone, in an arena such as this, if someone makes such a claim, they should be able and willing to "back it up".    

in other words: if i make such a claim in this forum, i cannot simply assume or expect that i will be automatically believed.   if i am who i claim to be, i shouldn't have any difficulty providing some sort of info (some family tid-bit or historical anecdote or something) and while it may be tiresome, there really is no reason to object to such an explanation.  

if we are expected to believe, show us why.

i believe that everyone should be proud of who they are and where they come from, whether they're listed in the almanach de gotha or not.     i also believe in everyone's right to re-invent themselves if they so wish....but skepticism is a tool that we need in order to make informed decisions and we all run into it in various forms everyday.   it would be foolish for anyone to believe they wouldn't run into it here.      we should, however, be as polite as possible when we give voice to it.    

i need to remember that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by brnbg »
"when i die, i hope i go like my grandfather --
peacefully in my sleep; not screaming & in terror,
like the passengers in his car."

-- anonymous
.

AlexP

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y'know, you make several very good points.   as often as my poorly worded statements have been misunderstood (here and in life), i probably should have been less quick to assume she was being condescending...   i must admit, though, when my Southern blood & upbringing tells me that someone is being condescending, they usually are.    although it's much more difficult to judge these days (ie: the internet vs face-to-face).    then again, my Southern manners should have kicked in and reminded me that a gentleman always, always gives a lady the benefit-of-a-doubt.    (i may be, and am, many things....but i'm always {well, usually} a gentleman).

and you're correct about others (true descendants) being hesitant in the face of such glaring doubt.    however, no-one can simply expect to be believed.    if we automatically gave credence to every statement of descent, this forum would probably be crawling with would-be princes & princesses, each one basking in the glow of our misplaced awe & admiration.   and while i believe that, in most cases, no-one should ever feel the need to prove who they are to anyone, in an arena such as this, if someone makes such a claim, they should be able and willing to "back it up".    

in other words: if i make such a claim in this forum, i cannot simply assume or expect that i will be automatically believed.   if i am who i claim to be, i shouldn't have any difficulty providing some sort of info (some family tid-bit or historical anecdote or something) and while it may be tiresome, there really is no reason to object to such an explanation.  

if we are expected to believe, show us why.

i believe that everyone should be proud of who they are and where they come from, whether they're listed in the almanach de gotha or not.     i also believe in everyone's right to re-invent themselves if they so wish....but skepticism is a tool that we need in order to make informed decisions and we all run into it in various forms everyday.   it would be foolish for anyone to believe they wouldn't run into it here.      we should, however, be as polite as possible when we give voice to it.    

i need to remember that.


Well, there is one more item here that should be at least brought up before it enters into the black whole of history.  There was a persistent but persistent rumor in St. Petersburg society from the moment of his "birth" and it followed him to his death that Felix Yussopov, fils, was not the natural son of the Yusspov family, but rather an orphan that had been adopted as a baby into the family as Mme Yussopova so wanted a larger family and by that her time her husband's bed was being shared with other men and not with her.  Everyone but everyone in pre-1917 Petersburg had heard this rumor, which in addition to his sexual proclivities, is one reason I believe that Felix, fils met with resistance when he tried to secure the hand of Irina in marriage.  In fact, one of the many comments that people of that era remember after he participated in the Rasputin slaying was that "he was not really a Yussopov, but rather..."  Again, this is high society gossip but it was very, very gossiped from one good family to the other.  Remember, Felix Sr. preferred military men to his wife, and I am sure that this contributed much to her poor nervous condition as she was truly a beautiful woman.  And Felix Sr. was truly a masculine, viril handsome man.

As for a Felix Jr. baptismal certificate, that was easy enough to arrange for a family with such connections.  Even in the Paris emigration after the Revolution these rumors abounded.

Will we ever know?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AlexP »

Offline Tasha_R

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Brian (liljones1968),
I understand where you're coming from.  Thank you for your explanation.

AlexP, wow... I had never heard that.

Imagine, for a moment, that you are a part of this family.  First of all, everyone talks about you (in high society, at least), from the legitimacy of Felix himself, to the fact that Felix insinuates the illegitimacy of his grandfather, to the fact that a murder/assisination (if even for the most honorable causes) occurred.

Then, there are multiple books that have been written, with some of them done by excellent researchers who counter the theories put forth by the family members themselves (Ferrand vs what Felix Youssoupoff wrote in his memoires).

I would find it no wonder to feel a certain aggrevation with the world in general in something that I would consider to basically be not of anyone else's business.  But, as I am sure most of the folks on this forum would agree, being born to privilege sometimes has the significant drawback of incurring the attention of many outside of the family circle.

Best regards,
Tasha