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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2005, 07:37:09 PM »
I think "Sasnovski" may be a bit of a stretch, considering that there was no first name given in his diary. But I don't know much about names, so maybe I will allow it. But how did Grossman know her last name? Why for example would he know her last name as opposed to her first name?
And as Denise also pointed out, his MO was prostitutes, this was the way he was able to get these women alone in an isolated place so that he could kill them without any witnesses. I never heard that FS may have been a prostitute. All this is a little too shady and vague. I'm sorry, I don't buy it without any additional evidence - it's just not convincing at all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline Denise

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2005, 07:46:27 PM »
Quote
I think "Sasnovski" may be a bit of a stretch, considering that there was no first name given in his diary. But I don't know much about names, so maybe I will allow it. But how did Grossman know her last name? Why for example would he know her last name as opposed to her first name?
 


THis is a great question.  Why would he bother to NAME the prostitutes in a diary?  But then again, the man was a psychopath, and logical, rational motivations really can't be applied to him.  But, if he is going out looking for women to murder and then butcher as meat, why get it into the personal information?

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2005, 07:52:06 PM »
Says here he had served three terms of hard labour for offences against children, one of which he killed.

So, all his victims were not prositutes.

And, another fact, in Berlin, at this time, if you're luck was down, which nearly everyone was because German money was useless, there were many females  who had nothing left but her body to sell.  And, since Grossmann was making money off of his victim's meat, then he had the money and, maybe, FS had the need for the money to make her trip to England....  She wasn't working at the factory any longer....

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2005, 07:55:32 PM »
Quote

THis is a great question.  Why would he bother to NAME the prostitutes in a diary?  But then again, the man was a psychopath, and logical, rational motivations really can't be applied to him.  But, if he is going out looking for women to murder and then butcher as meat, why get it into the personal information?

From everything I have read written by pro filers, serial killers tend to de-personalize their victims. They never ask them their names and do not want to know anything about them as individuals. They view them as an object. This is why serial killers never kill anyone they know personally... So this struck me as being somewhat strange, that Grossman actually knew not her first name, but her last name, and not only did he know it, he wrote it in his diary! First, why would she had told him her last name? Did he know her previously to this? How would they have met? Was she a prostitute?

Bear, I suppose there is nothing else in your book about Grossman's diary entry? Like what was the context of the entry where he wrote that name "Sasnovski"? Was it just like "Dear Diary, today I killed a woman named Sasnowski", or was there something different? It doesn't really make sense...
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 05:57:38 PM by Alixz »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2005, 08:13:23 PM »
Every criminal is an individual and so each case has it's own individuality.  One can clump certain individuals into groups.  Germans  loved to have some kind of order.  So if it's proven that a  certain group does it one way, then Grossmann's group would be the ones who like to keep something to remember his victims.  I suppose some collected panties, and, he collected names in his diary. Anyway, I suspect Grossmann had his reasons, and, maybe, the trial records do have this information.  I don't know.

Nor do I know how smart Grossmann was or how much schooling he had.  Spelling may not have been high on his list as accomplishments.  

AGRBear
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 05:58:34 PM by Alixz »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2005, 08:13:41 PM »
One more thing. Did the book say the name was "Sasnovski" or "Sasnovska"? If the former, then this probably means that Grossman was talking about a man. FS would have given him the feminine version of her last name "Schankowska" not the masculine  "Schankowski", so he would have heard and transcribed it that way, with an "a" at the end... It is possible that Grossman was talking about a man, not a woman? We can't know because it doesn't sound like he gave a first name. Were any of the children he murdered male, Bear? Maybe it was another child, or maybe it was a man. We just don't have enough information - by far - to accept this serial killer theory.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 05:59:08 PM by Alixz »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2005, 08:18:33 PM »
Quote
One more thing. Did the book say the name was "Sasnovski" or "Sasnovska"? If the former, then this probably means that Grossman was talking about a man. FS would have given him the feminine version of her last name "Schankowska" not the masculine  "Schankowski", so he would have heard and transcribed it that way, with an "a" at the end... It is possible that Grossman was talking about a man, not a woman? We can't know because it deosn't sound like he gave a first name. Were any of the children he murdered male, Bear? Maybe it was another child, or maybe it was a man. We just don't have enough information - by far - to accept this serial killer theory.


It's possible.  However, most Germans wouldn't use the feminine version.  In this time frame, most Germans thought all Polish names ended in "ski".  She could have told him "ska", I don't know.  And, why wouldn't she have told him her name.  She had no idea she was going to be his next victim.

AGRBear

PS "Sasnonski"  and "Franziska Schamzkovski" were the two names given in this book.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2005, 08:22:06 PM »
Quote
Every criminal is an individual and so each case has it's own individuality.  
It is true that each criminal is an individual, but this is a very specific type of a criminal. More often than not, specific types of killers have astonishingly similar MO and thinking patterns (hence profilers can predict almost exactly what they would be  like). This is especially the case with serial killers. If you get the chance, read some books written by Helen Morrison or John Douglas, profilers. You would be amazed at how similar all serial killers are psychologically! You have to remember that these people are psychopaths which means that they have a serious mental disorder, and just like with any other disorder there is a set of symptoms, in this case psychological and behavioral symptoms that they exhibit, and these symptoms tend to be the same. But enough of that. IMO, even if this weren't the case there is still not enough evidence to accept this serial killer theory.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2005, 08:24:50 PM »
Quote
It is true that each criminal is an individual, but this is a very specific type of a criminal. More often than not, specific types of killers have astonishingly similar MO and thinking patterns (hence profilers can predict almost exactly what they would be  like). This is especially the case with serial killers. If you get the chance, read some books written by Helen Morrison or John Douglas, profilers. You would be amazed at how similar all serial killers are psychologically! You have to remember that these people are psychopaths which means that they have a serious mental disorder, and just like with any other disorder there is a set of symptoms, in this case psychological and behavioral symptoms that they exhibit, and these symptoms tend to be the same. But enough of that. IMO, even if this weren't the case there is still not enough evidence to accept this serial killer theory.


Helen, this is one field I don't need farther education  ;D.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2005, 08:25:18 PM »
Quote

It's possible.  However, most Germans wouldn't use the feminine version.  In this time frame, most Germans thought all Polish names ended in "ski".  She could have told him "ska", I don't know.  
But at the same token, most Germans would then not know that "-ski" is the same last name as "-ska", only masculine. They would think they are just different names. So he would have probably transcribed it the way he heard it from her "-ska", which sounds significantly different than "-ski". Taking this into consideration too, we are stretching it more and more...

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2005, 08:27:52 PM »
No.

Even if she said "ska", he wouldn't have paid any attention.  He believed she was Polish and so he wrote "ski".  Even the book I'm taking this from didn't give her "ska" but the "ski".

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2005, 08:32:43 PM »
"Franziska Schamzkovski" was how it was written in this book.

And, the book or data Penny found is Schanskowska is spelled without the "S" and starts with a "C"....  I forget.  I'll have to go back and look.

AGRBear

PS  Found it.  Penny spelled it:  "Czenkowski"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2005, 08:33:47 PM »
Quote
 Even the book I'm taking this from didn't give her "ska" but the "ski".

If we at least had the context of his diary entry, but obviously we don't so we can't really know anything just from that.
In any case, as I said a couple of times already, regardless of all this, there is just not enough evidence to convince me that this serial killer theory is real. It's a possibility, but we just don't have enough information to accept it. Maybe it's just me, but what we have is way too speculative and ambiguous to accept as fact.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2005, 08:41:02 PM »
The evidence that Grossmann's victim  was murdered on 13 Aug 1921 about the same time as FS disapeared-- never to be seen or heard from again  [if she was killed and not AA] --doesn't place any weight toward a "maybe" or "possibility" or is that on the side of "improbable"?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2005, 08:43:44 PM »
Quote
The evidence that Grossmann's victim  was murdered on 13 Aug 1921 about the same time as FS disapeared-- never to be seen or heard from again  [if she was killed and not AA] --doesn't place any weight toward a "maybe" or "possibility" or is that on the side of "improbable"?

AGRBear


I already said it was a "possibility". Almost anything is possible. But in this case, we need more evidence to accept it as probable.