Author Topic: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2  (Read 42785 times)

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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #285 on: July 19, 2005, 09:10:55 AM »
Quote
.....so....did anyone else notice that Penny obstinately refused to answer my post?

<grrrrrrr>



;D   8)  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Penny_Wilson »
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Offline etonexile

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #286 on: July 19, 2005, 09:22:13 AM »
Quote

I don't think that will play out....

Unless you and Teddy know something we don't?

Susie


In the right light...erm...ok....pitch dark....Teddy's ears look suspiciously like those of six out of nine members of the IF....

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #287 on: July 19, 2005, 04:44:44 PM »
If FS was murdered, has anyone wondered what she was doing between the time she was reported missing to the 13th of Aug. ??

TIMELINE FOR FS:

1919  
Around Christmas time [25 Dec 1919] FS visited her family  
 
>>> 1920<<<  
17 Feb. 1920 brother Felix received a birthday card from FS  
 
Date reported missing:  
March 1920
 

13 Aug 1920 :  Franziska's family were told their daughter had been murder by Grossmann on 13 August 1920; an entry in his diary on that date bore the name "Sasnovski


March, April, May, June and July is "five months".

Was she with girlfriends?

With a new boyfriend?

Did she actually go to England?

Could she have met the real GD Anastasia on the boat?  [Hey, just thought I'd throw this in to see how many are reading my entired post  ;D.]

July 1920: a witness named Bruno Grandsitzki:  "...who claimed that he had met Franziska at Danzig in July 1920....  Grandsitzki remember that Franziska and 'some other girls' had been making ready to sail for England, where thye had found employment as domestic servants.  The ship ws called the Premier.. and Franziksa had even given him her new address in London.  It was 'Bedford Road
 
 Perhaps finding the work not what she expected, did she returned to Germany?  Returned around Aug.???

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #288 on: July 19, 2005, 05:29:53 PM »
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You keep repeating this "99.9% match" chant, but again - that's wrong, the match was 100%. Yes, any maternal relative of Gertrude's will have the same mtDNA, but this is not what I am talking about when I say less than 1% chance. Statistically speaking it is impossible that AA just happened to be some random maternal relative of Gertrude's and not FS, her sister. Again: based on the mtDNA bank comparison, the chance that AA was Gertrude's random maternal relative is less than 1% - which means impossible.

We seem to be continuosly discussing apples and oranges.  Anyway, I am going to give up on this because it is obvious that we are not speaking the same language...


Helen >> ...the match was 100%. Yes, any maternal relative of Gertrude's will have the same mtDNA<<

Bear:  "...any maternal relative of Gertrude's will have the same mtDNA...<<

InquiringMind tells us the following:

Quote
I am trying very hard to see everyone's point of view.

Please bear with me. I want to ask if this is how it works.

I have the same mtdna as my mother and her mother. Yes?

My grandmother had a sister(same  mother) who was very fruitful. She has 13 children. So her 13 children's mtdna would match mine?

Ten of the 13 were daughters. They had at least 5 children apiece. So would those 50+ people have the same mtdna as I?

We have lost track of this branch of the family basically because of the large number of people involved.

So let's say that 25 of the 50+ were women. And for illustration 10 of them are now mothers. Would these ten people have the same mtdna as I?

In just 3 generations from one woman were there about 70 or more people who have my mtdna? Many of these people live in my part of the state. But I would not recognize them or their marraige names at this point.

I think Bear is saying that during FS's time many people went missing. Many people also didn't stray too far from where they were born. People had large families.

So this is why I question if AA was FS or relative to FS.

Does mtdna mutate in three or four generations or would the children of the ten match mine 99% or would there be differences?

Thanks



She is telling us in her own family that 70+ female cousins in 3 generations would have the same mtDNA.  Some whom have lost contact.

My one grandmother had 93 descendants before she died.  Over half were females.  This means that I have more than 46 cousins  [first to third] with the same mtDNA.  That was back in the 1980s.  We all have lost count since then.  A couple of months ago,  I discovered I have a cousin 's daughter living about a mile from where I live and others living about five miles away.....  I would not reconize them if I came face to face.  

There is, also, a family joke regarding to a family on my father's side.  If a person lives in a particular state who is a particular religion and is a GR  [German Russian] then he or she is probably a cousin which dates back to ONE female ancestor who migrated to Russia in 1806.  And if not related then he/she  is married to a cousin. Yep, they were a healthy long living bunch who produced like rabbits.

So,  I'm not sure about your 1% stat, Helen.

Remember, the Schanzkowsky were said to be connected to an old Polish noblemen,  then the odds even go higher.  The upper circles had more money, more land and along with this better food which resulted in more children living to be adults.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline lexi4

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #289 on: July 19, 2005, 07:48:47 PM »
Thank you Bear. I have never seen a timeline and that helps a lot. I did not know about witness named Bruno Grandsitzki. Where did you read this? I would like to read more if there is more available.

Bear, I found a timeline you did for AA on another post in this thread. I wanted to pull it over to compare with the one you have for FS, but don't know how. Can you help? I think it would be interesting to compare the two.
Thank you
lexi4
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by lexi4 »
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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #290 on: July 20, 2005, 11:49:09 AM »
Quote
Helen:  Oh, good!  Glad you made that decision.  I know it is frustrating for you, and there's just no need in life to be frustrated when you don't have to be!


Finelly Please!
You have commented again and again that we need to be civil so please don't belittle Helen_ Azar's patience -- she has been trying to explain the subtleties of the evidence to us for almost a year...

Some of us are still confused and are grateful for her explanations!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #291 on: July 20, 2005, 03:07:40 PM »
I'm sorry.  I didn't realize that people are still confused.

I thought everyone here had either accepted one conclusion or were still open to other ideas.

My bad.

However, the concept of beating a dead horse.......

Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #292 on: July 20, 2005, 05:43:56 PM »
Quote


July 1920: a witness named Bruno Grandsitzki:  "...who claimed that he had met Franziska at Danzig in July 1920....  Grandsitzki remember that Franziska and 'some other girls' had been making ready to sail for England, where thye had found employment as domestic servants.  The ship ws called the Premier.. and Franziksa had even given him her new address in London.  It was 'Bedford Road
 
 Perhaps finding the work not what she expected, did she returned to Germany?  Returned around Aug.???

AGRBear


My mom went to NYC during the depression to work for a family as a domestic. The wealthy family paid for her train fare and gave her money upfront which she gave to her parents, who had 6 younger children. She was 13 yrs old. She wore a flower pinned to her coat as did the lady who sponsered her, as they had never met. The arrangement involved a commitment of time by my mother who became the nanny. (I often think it was a minor miracle that SHE was ever seen again.)

I am quessing that FS's passage would have been paid in a similar arrangement and she would have likely had to commit to working for a length of time to justify that money spent. If she didn't like her employment, she might have easily found herself homeless. I don't believe she would have earned enough money as a domestic in such a short time to get herself back to Germany, since most of the consideration is paid in room and board.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Inquiring_Mind »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #293 on: July 20, 2005, 08:41:14 PM »
Here is the Bruno data:

Quote
In ANASTAISIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON by Peter Kurth there is a section called "The Trails--First Instance (19958-1961).

Starting on p. 307 there is presented to us a witness named Bruno Grandsitzki:  "...who claimed that he had met Franziska at Danzig in July 1920....  Grandsitzki remember that Franziska and 'some other girls' had been making ready to sail for England, where thye had found employment as domestic servnats.  The ship ws called the Premier.. and Franziksa had even given him her new address in London.  It was 'Bedford Road'..."

Book doesn't tell us anything about Grandsitzki and why the lawyers of AA thought he was a credible witness.  Farther investigation went into the various ships by that name and there was some attempt to find the road in London and there were many roads, lanes etc., it seems.

Nothing more is said in the book.

I have no idea what kind of weight this witness had upon the court.

AGRBear


Evidently,  Bruno was important enough to be found and was part of AA's trial.

As for the domestic work FS may have found in London, the cost boat fare, etc.,  I don't have additional information.  

Does anyone know what the cost would have been?  If we knew then we would know if the fare was reasonable.  

I assume those days are ot different then now.  Domestics were probably poorly paid in 1920.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #294 on: July 20, 2005, 08:47:08 PM »
There is a Bedford Rd in London.
I chose the road less traveled and now...where the heck am I????

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #295 on: July 20, 2005, 08:56:14 PM »
Evidently there was/is more than one plus Bedford Lane, Court etc. .

At the moment,  I don't recall if Kurth's book voiced which were possible and which  were not.  Maybe the years which had passed changed these areas too much in order for anyone to follow this trail.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #296 on: July 20, 2005, 08:57:40 PM »
FS Timeline

Quote
New Timeline List - 18 May 2005 
 
>>>1896<<<
Date  of birth:
16 Dec 1896 "in Bororwihlas, a small town in Kashubia, one of the Polish Provinces at that time forming part of the German Empire."  When a German Province it was part of Pomerania-Kasubia.  See on modern map the area near Pozan [Posen]  / Wladyslowowo, Poland.
 
>>>1914<<<
"In 1914, shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, Franziska, at age eighteen, left the Polish provinces for Berlin. She worked as a waitress, met a young man, and became engaged. Before she could marry, her fiance was called up for military service. Franziska began working in a munitions factory."
 
>>>1916<<<
 
___ ___ 1916:  " In 1916, the young man" [FS], "was dating was killed on the western front."  
19 Sept 1916:  According to jeremy, this was the date FS was declared insane
 
>>>19??<<<
"Franziska was declared "not cured, but not dangerous," and discharged. She was taken in, almost as a charity case, by Frau Wingender, who gave her a room of her own, Incapable of working long periods, Franziska was in and out of sanatoria; in between, she remained bedridden at the Wingender's apartment, complaining of headaches, swallowing pills, and reading history books from the local library"  
 
1919
Around Christmas time [25 Dec 1919] FS visited her family  
 
>>> 1920<<<
17 Feb. 1920 brother Felix received a birthday card from FS
 
Date reported missing:
9 March 1920:  "...Berlin police were duly informed by the Wingenders, on March 9, that she had 'left, leaving no address.'"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #297 on: July 20, 2005, 09:01:46 PM »
AA Timeline:

Quote
>>9:00 PM, 18 Feb 1920
     The person who is to be known as Anna Anderson jumped off the Bendler Bridge into the Landwehr Canal, in Berlin.  She was pulled out of the water by Police Serg. Hallman and taken to Elizabeth Hospial in Lutzowstrasse  

>>End of March 1920 AA was sent to Dalldorf Asylum

>>Doctors exaimination on 30 March 1920 recorded her weight at 110 pounds and her height at just under five feet two...

>>17 June 1920 AA was fingerprinted and photographed.  These photographs were sent from Berlin out to   Stuttgart, Brunswick, Hamurg, Munich, Dresden... (Weimar Republic).  Places in Berlin, which probably included FS asylum where she spent some time more than once, were checked throughly....  Family members of those who had lost a dau., wife... were brought to see AA...  This included the family of a Maria Wacowiak in Posen....

>>autumn of 1921 AA announced she as the GD Anastasia and talked about the jewels sewn in her clothes

>>Claire Peuthert was committed to Dalldorf at the end of 1921

>>6 March 1922 Claire Peuthert tells Capt. Nicholas von Schwabe about AA, whom she said looked like GD Tatiana.... was at Dalldorf

>> 7 March 1922 Capt. Scwabe phoned his friend Franz Jaenicke and they agreeed to go to Dalldorf on Wed. , 9th of March....  Claire P. showed up at Capt. Schwabe's apartment

>> 9 March 1922  The first known contact of Capt Scwabe at Dalldorf, Ward B.  With him was Jaenicke.

>> 9 March, Wed.,  1922 the Supreme Monarchist Council heard about AA and so the word quickly spread through the whole emigre colony in Berlin....  The SMC sent guards to Dalldorf, people spoke with the doctors at Dalldorf, and people were sent to speak to the police....

>> 10 March 1922 Capt Scwabe brought to AA in Dalldorf Zinaida Tolstoy and her daughter, and, also, there was a Capt. Andreievsky

>>12 March, Sat., 1922  Baroness Buxoeveden arrived at Dalldorf to see AA with Zinaida Tolstoy.  It was the Baroness who pulled AA out of bed and declared that AA was too short to be Tatiana...  The Baroness left with little to say accept that AA resembled the GD Tatiana then went off to declare AA was not GD Tatiana as it had been thought ....

>>____ March 1922 Later, AA declared she had never said she was Tatina, which was apparently true,  AA had said she was Anastasia and everyone realized the mistake Buxoevenden had made and Capt. Schwabe continued to help AA.   The mistake had been created by Claire P.

>> 27 July 1925:  "Shura did NOT meet AA until July 27, 1925.  She met with AA along with Ambassador Zahle, Pierre Gilliard.  So there was a full 5 almost 5 1/2 years after Feb 1920 that she met with Shura or Gilliard, " Michael wrote.

>>On May 9, 1927  AA was taken for a meeting with Felix Schanzkowska the brother of Francisca.

>>9 July 1938:  The second meeting took place in Hannover on July 9, 1938.  At this meeting were: Marie Juliana, Valerian, Felix & Gertrude,  AA,  Fallows, Frau Madsack & Gleb Botkin, at the Police Headquarters, this meeting took place through the orders of the Government, and the manipulation of the new head of the Russian Emigre Office in Berlin 

AGRBear

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #298 on: July 20, 2005, 09:53:31 PM »
If questions are still being asked, then the subject is not closed.  

Even if some considered the subject is closed, this should not prevent some of us who do not think the subject is closed  to ask questions such as: Were Gertrude and FS Sisters?  

So, far,  all I can agree is that Gertrude and AA were probably relatives due to the mtDNA tests.

We can agree that most people think that Gertrude and FS were sisters.

Just as we can agree that Gertrude did not have a birth or baptismal certificates which tell us she is the daughter of Anton S. or his first wife, or his second wife, or,  Anton's brother's [if he had a brother] or sister's [if he had a sister]who was brought into the family to be raised.....

AGRBear

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline lexi4

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #299 on: July 20, 2005, 11:50:31 PM »
Thank you bear.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"