Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2

[AGRBear]

Updated Chart:

Penny: Is the following right?
 
CHART TWO:  
   
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (1) to 1890 to Josefina Peek
 Issue:  [unknown]
 
   
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (2) 1894  to  Marianna __NN__ b. 1866.   Marriage ended in divorce abt 1910/1912.  Both remarried.  [Mother remarried to ___NN___]  
     Issue:  
    2. Martin Christian S. b. 16 November 1895
    3. Franziska S.  b. 16 December 1896 [date from Penny]  also listed in some books as  22 December 1896, baptized 24 December 1896
     *  Gertrude b. poss. 1898
    4.  Michael S.  b. 16 December 1899
    5.  Valerian S.  (AKA Walther) b. 25 April 1901
    6.  Felix b. 17 February 1903
    7. Juliane Marianna S. (AKA Maria Juliana) b. 30 April 1905
 
 ---
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (3) to  ___NN3___  
 Issue:  
   1. [unknown]  
 
NOTES
*Gertrude S.'s official birthdate unknown and place in families above is at this time is not known, however, Gertrude did tell people her birthdate was 1898 which would place her fourth between FS and Michael.

On another thread Penny said this chart was right.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

More on Gertrude:

...[in part]...

Gertrud's children were:

1. Another Gertrud m. Maucher
     Carl Maucher's mother.

2, Hedwig Lander
    

3. Margarete
     Who lived with Carl Maucher
 
4. Magdalene m. Weber
     Had a son called Herbert Weber

Hope this all helps

[Annie]

Okay this is a little bit different- the vast majority of us accept that AA was not AN, and was FS. So let's discuss HOW a Polish farm girl managed to trick the world for so long. My guess is she had help, but was a good actress herself, and eventually came to believe her charade due to mental illness. Of course, we will never know the whole truth since everyone connected to this is dead, but we can try to explain it with our own reasonably reasonable theories. What are yours?

[Forum Admin]

I think she really believed what she was saying. People saw in her what they wanted to see, and she took cues and gleaned information from them, using that to build upon, much like those so called "psychics" do with their audiences (I see the letter "S"...is there a relative with the letter S??").

No one really presented her with any conclusive challenges, nothing that could really be verified by several sources.  I think she took small nuggets of truth, and like most good con artists, used those nuggets to suggest things far in excess of reality (for example, I could say "Yesterday I went to the Mercedes Dealer to look over the new S Class"...That can easily be interpreted to say that I am buying a new Mercedes S, well, maybe I DID go to the dealership, kick the tires and take a brochure, but I certainly can't really AFFORD a $100,000 car.) I think she just let people believe what they wanted to and ran with that ball.

Just my 2cents.
Rob

[jeremygaleaz]

People saw in her what they wanted to see, and she took cues and gleaned information from them

You know, you are absolutely right FA. People see what they want to see , not the least of which are the arguments over her physical appearence. Some people still see resemblences to AN, and argue against any resemblence to FS.....

I've been reading another book that actually parallels the AA case in many ways it's called "The Lost German Slave Girl" by John Bailey, a great book.....

And I still recommend "The Lost King of France,"  which shows that the AA case was really just history repeating itself with a different cast of royals, nobles, frauds, and con men!

[Elisabeth]

I agree with the above opinions, with the proviso, that I really don't think she believed in her heart of hearts that she was Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna. I think she was always aware that she was conning others, and that it was a long con, so she had to stay alert and continually adjust her story to stay in tune with what others, who were better informed than she, were saying. I think AA was mentally ill, but that doesn't mean she was crazy. If she'd been flat-out crazy, she wouldn't have been able to mirror others so effectively, to echo their "facts," behavior, and opinions, to continue to glean new information from them. Instead she would have existed in her own little world, impervious to new facts and ideas.

[lexi4]

Good topic. I have always wondered how she pulled it off. But I think you all are correct. She was smart and could gleam enough information from her supporters to run with it. I think there were people who wanted so deperately to believe that someone from the IF survived, that she has some easy targets.
I have also wondered if she was coached and conned into the roll of AN by others with an agenda of their own. In any case, it is all very sad really. Can you imagine living your whole live as someone you are not?

[Alice]

Okay this is a little bit different- the vast majority of us accept that AA was not AN, and was FS. So let's discuss HOW a Polish farm girl managed to trick the world for so long. My guess is she had help, but was a good actress herself, and eventually came to believe her charade due to mental illness. Of course, we will never know the whole truth since everyone connected to this is dead, but we can try to explain it with our own reasonably reasonable theories. What are yours?

I'm surprised that this hasn't gotten more responses, people usually get rather riled up with discussions about AA/FS!  

Nevertheless, a short story. A family friend, (who is an actor) was working on the film, "A Cry in the Dark" with Meryl Streep in the 80s. This film was about the disappearance of baby Azaria Chamberlain from the area around Ayer's Rock in central Australia (allegedly the baby was taken by a dingo). Anyway, our friend was amazed at Meryl's ability to become the character. He said that, even between takes and in breaks, Meryl retained her character's mannerisms.

I really think that FS was a person who had this ability. As FA said, she believed that she was AN. Also, in the early 1920's etc, it was easier to believe that someone may've escaped the massacre, because the remains had not been found. Another factor is that, I think, many people wanted to believe that someone survived.

(BTW hello to everyone . . . I've been away for awhile and I hope everyone is well!)  

[Olga]

This film was about the disappearance of baby Azaria Chamberlain from the area around Ayer's Rock in central Australia (allegedly the baby was taken by a dingo).

A dingo stole my baby!! *shrill, loud voice*

Another factor is that, I think, many people wanted to believe that someone survived.

This is the key to the survivor stories. It's comonly called Denial, as is best illustrated by Maria Fyodorovna.

(BTW hello to everyone . . . I've been away for awhile and I hope everyone is well!)  

Welcome back Alice! On a side note, are you Australian?

[Alice]

Thankyou, Olga, and yes, I am Australian. I've recently returned from a year living in Japan.

[Olga]

Very nice! My grandmother's from Japan, but I think I've already told you that. Duh!

Whereabouts in Australia are you?

[Annie]

Everyone's ideas are very good! I'm sure they're all a part of the story somehow!

Welcome back Alice! Yes, FS did always want to be an actress. If she seemed 'refined' she was either acting (hey you can be coaches, like My Fair Lady) or as FA said, maybe some people just saw what they wanted to see.

But really, just about anyone can put on an act if they have to. What about job interviews? Court cases? Meeting the prospective new in-laws? It's not that hard to pretend to be something you're not. I have an aunt who is very prim and proper, and every since I was a kid, whenever we visited her, we were told to be on our best behavior. Boisterious, noisy, joking, playful, even sloppy people became quiet, calm, reserved, well mannered, even prissy. My Mom used to call this being "Mae Correct" If you met royalty, you'd do the same. If you met a favorite rock singer, you might be more loud, or act 'cool.' I think this is something anybody can do if they want to.

[Helen_Azar]

My assessment of how FS did is probably closest to Elisabeth's. I think FS was partially a conwoman and partially a mentally ill person, and this combination resulted in AA. It was also a combination of a certain kind of talent and luck. She got lucky in many ways, her ear for example was not different enough from AN's in  to rule her out, etc. This luck was why she became the most famous AN pretender. If she didn't get lucky, she would have gotten lost in the herd of other Anastasia wanna-be's and we would not be talking about her right now.

[AGRBear]

If AA was FS.....

FS had to have acquired scars which were  healed, even the one where it appeared that a mole was removed.  When did she?  I believe her family said she didn't have any marks that the police could use to identify the missing FS.  So, her wounds and the healing had to occur: (1)  between the time she last saw her family and headed for  Berlin to the time  she saw her family in Dec.: (2) or, from Dec to the moment FS jumped into the canal and was fished out by the policeman.  I'm not sure what time slot Gertrude and their living togather is incerted into this timeline.  Oh, maybe it was (3) after the doctors exaimed FS after the accident at the factor because the reports tells us she had not suffered any wounds....  Anyway, to acquire these kind of scars  sounds calculating and rings with conspiracy.

FS would have had to have been fasinated with the IF and often read about them.  It does appears she read a lot after the accident in the factory where she didn't suffer any injuries but it did kill a co-worker which proabably contributed to her break down. A break down tells us her mental state at that time was very emotional and too difficult for the family to handle.   So, if there was no conspiracy, then, she just "fell" into the part and never let go. And, her emotions fit the emotions which GD Anastasia would have suffered if she had survived.

FS could have  become pregnant and carried the child to part or full term by her boyfriend who was killed in action.  This happen in a lot of romance novels and I presume in real life.  Adding the story about a child being born to her and her rescuer during  her adventure from Ekaterinburg to Berlin was needed and so she did.

No one may have knowingly helped her and this was all her game and no one elses.  I do know that people do give up the darnest information without even knowing it because it happens all the time when I interview people for genealogy research.



AGRBear

[etonexile]

A sad,mad woman...FS...finally has something to cling to...her vague resemblance to a Romanov GD....and cling she did.....