Author Topic: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3  (Read 42870 times)

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Offline lexi4

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2005, 12:25:40 AM »
thank you bear.
It is interesting to note that the Berlin police did not make a connection between the two woman. they had photographs etc of those living in the asylum. They never make a connection from AA to FS. As we all know. that didn't happen until later.
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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2005, 07:41:36 AM »
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thank you bear.
It is interesting to note that the Berlin police did not make a connection between the two woman. they had photographs etc of those living in the asylum. They never make a connection from AA to FS. As we all know. that didn't happen until later.



As I have stated before I have alwas found it more than curious, that the detective hired by beloved Uncle Ernie, chose a dead girl, whose family believed that she was dead, and who the police believed was dead, and that his main witnesses to his case were the credibility impugned Wingenders.

Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2005, 08:51:03 AM »
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As I have stated before I have alwas found it more than curious, that the detective hired by beloved Uncle Ernie, chose a dead girl, whose family believed that she was dead, and who the police believed was dead, and that his main witnesses to his case were the credibility impugned Wingenders.


Since you are stating pure opinion with no sources, I suppose I am free to do the same.

First, the detective didn't 'choose' a 'dead' girl, he did an investigation and found out who she was, and he did turn out to be right. Those of you who love to investigate should find a way to get into the 'source' of this guy's investigation and how it was done. You might just find out he knew a lot of things you aren't giving him credit for, and it might be more interesting than you think.

Second, as I have said before, if she was so 'dead' why was she even brought up in a trial, why were DNA tests made on her? The 'dead' theory was not very strong, since there was no evidence in the case other than cirumstantial guessing. And if you want to bring up how wonderful the Berlin police dept. was, then why didn't they, as Lexi said, make the connection to AA in the asylum, or at least investigate this? The main reasons I would presume are human error, apathy, too much else to do, and remember this case was not earthshattering at the time. FS and/or AA was poor and unknown, it wasn't like us now being obsessed with every bit of info on her. They really didn't care, they had other and more important cases on their minds.

However, after AA came to worldwide notoriety, things changed. Obviously, and I do mean OBVIOUSLY, no one at the time of the trial considered FS 'dead' anymore.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2005, 10:40:44 AM »
Since the trial of AA was to prove she was GD Anastasia,  it was  important for her opposition  to claim AA was someone else.  Just because FS was brought into the trial does not mean this evidence was accepted by the judges.  It was of course viewed by the judges.  Evidently,  what was presented wasn't enough to prove AA was FS.  

I'd like to see the actual words of the German court judge which states that AA was FS  because if you have seen this,  I must have missed this evidence.  

Could you please give us your source.

From what I understand,  the trial was to prove AA was GD Anastasia.  And, from what I understand AA won her appeal to have a retrial to prove she was GD Anastasia, therefore, technically,  the case is still open in the German court.

On several of these threads several of us have quoted sources to provide the posters this information.

As for the DNA,  we know the tests of the intestines show a link of mtDNA between AA and Gertrude S.  This means the two of them could have been sisters or  first to thirty-fifth cousins.

Even though it appears that Gertrude S. was the sister of FS because they lived in the home of the same family of Anton S.'s,  \we do not know if they had the same mothers.  Anton S. was married more than once.  Gertrude may have been the issue of the first wife.  In order to prove this,  research has been done to find the birth certifcate and / or baptismal record of Gertrude.  Nothing.  Which means we don't know who Gertrude's mother was.  In fact, we cannot even prove she was the daughter of Anton S..

Was AA proven to be FS?  No.

Can we assume AA was FS?  That is completely up to the poster.

What do I think?  I'm keeping an open mind.

AGRBear



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Mgmstl

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2005, 11:12:23 AM »
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Since you are stating pure opinion with no sources, I suppose I am free to do the same.

First, the detective didn't 'choose' a 'dead' girl, he did an investigation and found out who she was, and he did turn out to be right. Those of you who love to investigate should find a way to get into the 'source' of this guy's investigation and how it was done. You might just find out he knew a lot of things you aren't giving him credit for, and it might be more interesting than you think.

Second, as I have said before, if she was so 'dead' why was she even brought up in a trial, why were DNA tests made on her? The 'dead' theory was not very strong, since there was no evidence in the case other than cirumstantial guessing. And if you want to bring up how wonderful the Berlin police dept. was, then why didn't they, as Lexi said, make the connection to AA in the asylum, or at least investigate this? The main reasons I would presume are human error, apathy, too much else to do, and remember this case was not earthshattering at the time. FS and/or AA was poor and unknown, it wasn't like us now being obsessed with every bit of info on her. They really didn't care, they had other and more important cases on their minds.

However, after AA came to worldwide notoriety, things changed. Obviously, and I do mean OBVIOUSLY, no one at the time of the trial considered FS 'dead' anymore.



No he didn't "turn out to be right".  

Secondly there many who considered FS dead, and that was among the AA supporters, so to make a statment like that is an assumption.  Remember at the END of the trials, the court ruled that she hadn't produced enough evidence to prove that she was Anastasia, but it didn't state that she was proven to be  Franziska Schanzkowska either.

As far as Ernie's detective goes, again I will state that it has always been curious to me that in a city the size of Berlin and it's suburbs with all of the missing persons likely to be reported at that time, that he chose a woman of polish extraction, of which very little was known, and only ONE faded photograph to identify her could be produced, and his main witnesses, the Wingenders, ended up having little or no credibility, and that his case was based on their testimony, which in court fell apart.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2005, 12:20:58 PM »
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p. 177 ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON by Kurth:

In regards to AA's appeal to the lower courts decision, German Supreme Court decision on 17 Feb 1970 was:

>>technically, [the AA case], was not closed.  The judgment held that Anastasia's claim must be regarded as "no liquet" -- "neither established nor refuted", unsatisfactory to both parties.<<

This also menat that she was free to >>change her name legally to "Anatasia Nicolaieva Romanov"<< and >>Judge Pegedarm wanted it undertstood that his ruling constututed no reflection on Anastasia's true identiy:  "We have not decided that the plantiff is not Grand Duchess Anastasia, but only that the Hamubrg court made its decision without legal mistakes and without procedural errors."<<

AGRBear



Let me repeat the last legal word spoken about the AA case:

 "We have not decided that the plantiff is not Grand Duchess Anastasia, but only that the Hamubrg court made its decision without legal mistakes and without procedural errors."

AGRBear
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Mgmstl

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2005, 12:39:30 PM »
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Let me repeat the last legal word spoken about the AA case:

 "We have not decided that the plantiff is not Grand Duchess Anastasia, but only that the Hamubrg court made its decision without legal mistakes and without procedural errors."

AGRBear


You know Bear it's strange, while I don't believe she was AN, I clearly I am not convinced of the fact that she was FS, I find it even stranger that posts are made with inferences of an incorrect verdict, from those who make it their job to disseminate bits of misnformation.  

Thanks for reproducing the verdict here again, your resourcefulness is greatly appreciated, as are ALL of your efforts!! ;D

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2005, 12:40:42 PM »
Of course, the Hamburg court had decided that she was not Anastasia. The open-ended decision of the supreme court was a ruling about whether Andersons rights had been violated during that trial. To put it simply,  I am not sure that the appeal was designed to prove that she was Anastasia in the first place, merely that she had not been denied a legitimate opportunity to do so in the lower courts.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2005, 01:17:22 PM »
Let me repeat the last legal word spoken about the AA case:

 "We have not decided that the plantiff is not Grand Duchess Anastasia, but only that the Hamubrg court made its decision without legal mistakes and without procedural errors."

The court did not decide that AA was not Grand Duchess Anastasia and there was no mention of AA being FS since it was not proven or even a major part of the trial.  Yes, it was a part but then so were the fake photographs of the Winganders.   So was the testimony that a witness had last seen FS with girlfriends in July of 1920 and the girls  were talking about heading to England to work as domestics.  FS even gave him her future address.

Ahhh yes,  another piece of evidence often avoided by some posters.

Don't have the books next to me at this time but I can certainly find this witness' name and  the source which claims he testified in AA's trial.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2005, 01:38:11 PM »
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  So was the testimony that a witness had last seen FS with girlfriends in July of 1920 and the girls  were talking about heading to England to work as domestics.  FS even gave him her future address.

Ahhh yes,  another piece of evidence often avoided by some posters.



AGRBear


I'm not avoiding it, I just don't put any value in it. In many cases, someone will swear they saw someone somewhere on a certain date when in fact the date was wrong, or the person was a case of mistaken identity, or, perhaps, some people even lie to give an alibi to a buddy. So this is also something that is only one person's word of mouth that cannot be proven.

Two years ago, my son's English teacher called me up and told me that she had seen my son going into the woods with some boys at a football game, and she thought they were up to no good. When she told me the date and time, I told her she must have been mistaken, he was with me at the movie theater at that time. She got very overbearing and swore that it was him, she didn't make mistakes, she had a 'photographic memory' for faces, and that she would swear her hand on a Bible in court it was him because she knew it was him.

But it wasn't.

Human error happens.

Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2005, 01:44:05 PM »
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Of course, the Hamburg court had decided that she was not Anastasia.


There was no case to prove if she was FS or not, that was not the question, not for the court to decide. If they wanted an answer to that, there would have to be a separate trial.

Here I go again with analogies:

My friend was sued by his landlord, and he tried to get out of it by saying he didn't owe his landlord for something because the landlord owed him for something else. He lost. He was told, this case is not about item #2 it's about item #1, and if you want to fight item  #2 come back and file your own case.  Like when someone is found innocent in a case, they don't go tell you who is guilty. That's another case.

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2005, 02:43:30 PM »
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There was no case to prove if she was FS or not, that was not the question, not for the court to decide. If they wanted an answer to that, there would have to be a separate trial.

Here I go again with analogies:

My friend was sued by his landlord, and he tried to get out of it by saying he didn't owe his landlord for something because the landlord owed him for something else. He lost. He was told, this case is not about item #2 it's about item #1, and if you want to fight item  #2 come back and file your own case.  Like when someone is found innocent in a case, they don't go tell you who is guilty. That's another case.



Let's stop with these ad hoc analogies, they have little to do with the subject matter, and aren't relevant to the discussion at hand.  

It is safe to say that neither side won during the court case,  and that for those of us that don't believe that AA is FS, the case remains open, and for those that believe opposite the case is closed.

Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2005, 02:48:47 PM »
The case was really not closed until the DNA results came in. There is much more chance of human error taking place in the subjective stuff than any error in science, especially by four independant labs, none of whom cared who AA was, but probably would have thought it more fun if she was AN.

Mgmstl

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2005, 02:55:16 PM »
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The case was really not closed until the DNA results came in. There is much more chance of human error taking place in the subjective stuff than any error in science, especially by four independant labs, none of whom cared who AA was, but probably would have thought it more fun if she was AN.



For those who believe like you do the case is closed, you can quote DNA until the cows come home Annie, but I  stopped listening to that quite a while ago, and besides I don't believe she was AN.

Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2005, 03:45:00 PM »
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For those who believe like you do the case is closed, you can quote DNA until the cows come home Annie, but I  stopped listening to that quite a while ago, and besides I don't believe she was AN.


I don't want to make you mad, I really don't, but I still would like to know if you don't think she was AN than why would AN's Wicked Uncle Ernie lie, as you so often say he did?  ???