Author Topic: Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918  (Read 30319 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918
« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2005, 03:08:27 PM »
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On pg. 272 of 'Nicholas II' The Last of the Tsar's. Marc Ferro describes how Anastasia escapes. "Transferred to Perm with her sisters, she escaped with one of her young captors. Caught, beaten and/or raped by the soldiers, and brought back, she was examined by Dr. Utkin.  Then she disappeared again, we do not know how. In any case, she was not at Perm railway station for the journey to Kiev, and after September her sisters did not know what had happened to her."  It does go on to say that because of her traumatic experience she couldn't face her family.  

I cannot believe that she would not have wanted the compassion of her Mother and sisters.  It is more likely that she believed the spin that her whole family had been killed.


There are three people who gave testimony about Alexandra and just three of the daughters having left Perm. One of the girls did not leave with the others.

Ferro tells us about one of the girl's escape from the testimony of Mutnykh on 8 March 1919:   "One of the girs escaped from this cellar in September, but was caught somehwere beyond the Kama and brought back, while the family were transported elsewhere..."

If this is true, then Alexandra and the 3 girls were not executed until after this time period testified by Mutnykh.

Ferro p. 264-5 talks about Dr. Utkin and gives his testimony of 10 Feb 1919.  He does not say he attended her in Ekaterinburg but in Perm.


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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918
« Reply #76 on: February 10, 2005, 06:02:53 PM »
I can not agree with Greg:

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AGRBear:

Our reasons for discounting this testimony are numerous and based on solid evidence, not an erroneous view that we "don't seem to be interested" in the subject.  We read through 11 volumes of original Sokolov Dossiers, reports, additional materials in private collections and contemporary 1918-1922 reports of which we own original copies or original certified copies.  Having explored the issue of the Perm stories at great length during our research, and Gaida's reliability on a number of issues, as well as reports by his superiors on the subject, it became clear to us that the Perm stories were nothing more than Bolshevik propaganda, designed to serve two purposes: 1) Distract the White investigators; and 2) Allow rumors to flow unchecked for the benefit of Soviet relations with western governments, so as not to have to admit that the women and children had been executed.  Our position is therefore based on our research, not on presumed disinterest in the subject.

Greg King



I don't think they were rumors, I think, however, that the  the Bolsheviks put their own spin on these stories which they used to hide the fact that something else happen in the Impatiev House on the night of 16/17 July 1918.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Denise

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Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918
« Reply #77 on: February 13, 2005, 09:43:03 AM »
I believe they were Bolshevik rumors, based on the number of rumors spread after the execution of GD Michael and his secretary.  In the case of the Imperial family, there was an even greater need for the rumor mill, as the children and Alexandra were not supposed to be killed.  THerefore, it was a case of cover your bum....

Mgmstl

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Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918
« Reply #78 on: February 13, 2005, 10:18:15 AM »
Think about it Bear, the Lenin Govt. in Moscow had to worry how they appeared to the west in order to gain a legitimate footing internationally, so these well spread rumors gave them time, to do that.  It had to look like the central govt. didn't santion or allow the execution of AF & hger children.  

We have to really be honest here, and realize that no one could have survived that type of brutal mass shooting.

Offline Denise

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« Reply #79 on: February 13, 2005, 10:45:47 PM »
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Think about it Bear, the Lenin Govt. in Moscow had to worry how they appeared to the west in order to gain a legitimate footing internationally, so these well spread rumors gave them time, to do that.  It had to look like the central govt. didn't santion or allow the execution of AF & hger children.  



Thank you for saying that so eloquently.  Exactly my point.  


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We have to really be honest here, and realize that no one could have survived that type of brutal mass shooting.


I don't know that too many people think there were survivors per se.  However, I do think it possible that if a seriously wounded Alexei or Anastasia was either "rescued" or fell from the truck that they may have died at a peasant's home and been buried there.  
Surviving the shooting and living to tell are two different things.....





Offline AlexeiLVR

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Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2005, 01:40:25 AM »
Ok I have a question! I've herd that AF and her children were not supposto be killed! But somewhere els I've herd that only Nicholas and Alexei were supposto be killed!

So my question is who were the ones who were supposto be killed? Nicholas and Alexei or just Nicholas?

And why were Alexandra and OTMAA killed if only Nicholas was supposto be?


jeremygaleaz

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Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2005, 05:11:04 PM »
Perhaps the reason they decided to kill them all is that the Bolsheviks didn't want the whites to have any symbol to wrap around.
I know that female sucession wasn't permitted. But, perhaps they feared that in the mist of a Civil war, the whites/ monarchists  might rally around the Tsar's wife and/or  one of the daughters? (which, it seems, many of them did, regardless ofwhether she was the real thing or not!)  

But, what bothers me alot is Dr. Utkin's testimony that he "Anastasia" he treated used the terms "imperatora" and "gosudarya" (old Russian words for "emperor" and "ruler" or "sovereign") and not "Czar" like an average Russian Subject would say. "gosudarya" would've been used more in court circles.
Having a theory about someone's orgins is of course, it's not an exact science. Still, it leaves one wondering...    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by jeremygaleaz »

Offline Denise

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Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2005, 05:49:22 PM »
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But, what bothers me alot is Dr. Utkin's testimony that he "Anastasia" he treated used the terms "imperatora" and "gosudarya" (old Russian words for "emperor" and "ruler" or "sovereign") and not "Czar" like an average Russian Subject would say. "gosudarya" would've been used more in court circles.
Having a theory about someone's orgins is of course, it's not an exact science. Still, it leaves one wondering...    


Exactly!!  It truly makes one wonder who AAA was, and where she got her info.  If she was FS, as the DNA seems to make certain, I wonder where she goy her knowledge of languages and also of certain court protocol, as Jeremy points out.  

jeremygaleaz

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Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2005, 05:59:49 PM »
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Exactly!!  It truly makes one wonder who AAA was, and where she got her info.  If she was FS, as the DNA seems to make certain, I wonder where she goy her knowledge of languages and also of certain court protocol, as Jeremy points out.  


Thanks Denise!

But AA never said this. These terms were used by the Perm "Anastasia" in FOTR. (AA seems to have used the terms "Kaiser" and "Czar" in describing her "father)
It makes me wonder if the Bolsheviks may have used the real AN in order to throw of the Whites...

questions...questions...questions....

Offline Candice

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« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2005, 06:09:10 PM »
Still everyone talks about IF as all being killed.  Why don't we look at the rosy possibility that they did escape. Why don't we look to investigate that.

I think Anna A was taught protocol and languages. People can learn. She was a smart individual that thought she could get away with the impersonation.

We have many witnesses that saw the imperial family after the murder.  The Bolsheviks made the whole thing up.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Candice »

Offline Denise

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Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918
« Reply #85 on: February 14, 2005, 06:21:11 PM »
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Thanks Denise!

But AA never said this. These terms were used by the Perm "Anastasia" in FOTR. (AA seems to have used the terms "Kaiser" and "Czar" in describing her "father)
It makes me wonder if the Bolsheviks may have used the real AN in order to throw of the Whites...

questions...questions...questions....


Sorry about the mixup.  But it still does make you wonder about the Perm Anastasia.  The Bolsheviks seemed so intent in finding AN in Perm, going so far as to use Princess Helena to ID a prospective AN.  Who was the girl you mention may be an unanswered mystery.  BUt as Anastasia's remains are still missing, we don't know.

How do you mean, the Bolsheviks used AN?    I'd like to hear your speculations on this!  :D

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Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918
« Reply #86 on: February 14, 2005, 06:21:12 PM »
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Still everyone talks about IF as all being killed.  Why don't we look at the rosy possibility that they did escape. Why don't we look to investigate that.

I think Anna A was taught protocol and languages. People can learn. She was a smart individual that thought she could get away with the impersonation.

We have many witnesses that saw the imperial family after the murder.  The Bolsheviks made the whole thing up.


*Reeallly*? I bet you helped them orchestrate it too, huh?  You must have, how else could you make a declarative statement such as that?
Well, there are other reasons people make these types of remarks...

Many witnesses...hmmm...*many* witnesses. Do you mean after the "murders" literally (which would be accurate), or the "la la" version of "after"?
If the latter, do you have names (and I *don't* mean the doctor recently discussed nor the women who saw some "Romanovs " by "weak candlelight" in Perm, nor the ones who claimed to see "Anastasia" at the railroad siding).

Who else, among the "many witnesses" do you refer to?


Offline Denise

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« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2005, 06:26:32 PM »
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Still everyone talks about IF as all being killed.  Why don't we look at the rosy possibility that they did escape. Why don't we look to investigate that.



Not to be mean, Candice, but the small matter of the DNA tests shows us that the IF did die in Ekaterinburg.  Investigating an escape of persons who we know to have died seems rather pointless.

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I think Anna A was taught protocol and languages. People can learn. She was a smart individual that thought she could get away with the impersonation.



Who taught her all that and to what purpose?  As she wasn't AN, then are are you suggesting she was taught these things to impersonate the grand duchess?  Again, who would be the one behind this impersonation?

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We have many witnesses that saw the imperial family after the murder.  The Bolsheviks made the whole thing up.


Yes, just as "witnesses" were reported to have seen Michael after he was killed.  The Bolsheviks needed to keep the illusion that Alexandra and the children were still alive as Moscow had not authorized their murders.  

And what exactly do you believe the Bolsheviks made up?





Dashkova

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Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918
« Reply #88 on: February 14, 2005, 06:44:03 PM »
FOTR was rereleased with a few pages of new research, just a couple years ago (about the time the McNeal book came out).

Of course much is outdated.  Much of it is a "stretch."  

However (a big however), Summers and Mangold should always be commended for being willing to look at alternative outcomes.  Not only that, but their research regarding methods of burning human bodies (and how it's not so easy to do and that teeth are impossible to destroy by any known methods).  Plus, their work on the lack of decomposition of the dog that was found in the mine shaft is excellent.

I also quite like how they bother to discuss the investigators that preceded Sokolov.

There is nothing wrong with gleaning what is still good, what will probably always be good research.  I think most people interested in this subject, except for the very young, very uninformed, or very naive, and armed with a few caveats, can read FOTR and still obtain some good information.

It can usually be found in good second hand bookstores and of course, always available online, very cheaply.

Offline Denise

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Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918
« Reply #89 on: February 14, 2005, 06:52:50 PM »
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FOTR was rereleased with a few pages of new research, just a couple years ago (about the time the McNeal book came out).

Of course much is outdated.  Much of it is a "stretch."  

However (a big however), Summers and Mangold should always be commended for being willing to look at alternative outcomes.  Not only that, but their research regarding methods of burning human bodies (and how it's not so easy to do and that teeth are impossible to destroy by any known methods).  Plus, their work on the lack of decomposition of the dog that was found in the mine shaft is excellent.

I also quite like how they bother to discuss the investigators that preceded Sokolov.

There is nothing wrong with gleaning what is still good, what will probably always be good research.  I think most people interested in this subject, except for the very young, very uninformed, or very naive, and armed with a few caveats, can read FOTR and still obtain some good information.

It can usually be found in good second hand bookstores and of course, always available online, very cheaply.


Thanks Dashkova.  You are the first review I have read on this book that is objective and gives both sides.  I didn't know there was a revised edition....

I think I will look into this after all...