Author Topic: Identification Russian Nobles  (Read 56759 times)

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Offline wladimir

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Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2012, 02:11:07 PM »


Hello, I have this portrait of a noble man that I believe to be maybe russian.
The crest seems to be the Orlov' coat of arms.
The portrait was painted in the year 1713  and the man was 41 years old. (anno aetatis suae)
The cross like St-Anna order.
Off course I am really not shure about the description so that is why I have posted this portrait trying to get an historical scholar advice.
Many thanks.
W


« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 02:13:11 PM by wladimir »

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2012, 02:27:02 PM »
Can not be Orlov or the St. Anne order.  The Order of St. Anne was not created until 1735, so 'if' painted in 1714, its too early.  Grigori Grigorievich Orlov was not even born until 1734.  The heraldic crest is close to Orlov, however not exactly a match, their should be two lions rampant in each quadrant, and a few other minor differences.

Sorry I can't help more, but there are those here far more knowledgable than I am on the subject of 18th century heraldry.


aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2012, 04:14:43 PM »
Can not be Orlov or the St. Anne order.  The Order of St. Anne was not created until 1735, so 'if' painted in 1714, its too early.  Grigori Grigorievich Orlov was not even born until 1734.  The heraldic crest is close to Orlov, however not exactly a match, their should be two lions rampant in each quadrant, and a few other minor differences.

Sorry I can't help more, but there are those here far more knowledgable than I am on the subject of 18th century heraldry.



  Just saw this posting and these are my INITIAL reactions (I will gladly stand to be corrected in any and all circumstances) and I offer these for consideration:
  I agree this is not the Russian Order of Saint Anne.  The depiction of the seated frontal (and sceptered) Virgin and the way in which she holds the Child is more traditionally reminiscent, IMO. to that of European (non-Russian) origin. My first guess would be "German," taking into the consideration of all the Germanic kingdoms, duchies, etc.  
  The peculiar lace rectangular neck "tabs," collar, etc. of the individual do not appear in my eyes to be Russian.
  The decoration's neck-piece is apparently highly jeweled and the individual is wearing no other decorations (such as a star of the order, but then again, this neck piece may be ALL that is prescribed for that grade of the order).
  Could it be an ecclesiastical order worn by an obviously titled noble (not necessarily an ecclesiastic), or could the neck-piece be an elaborate personal pectoral cross of his own preference?
  In reference to the arms: the bicephalous eagle is seen frequently in many coats-of arms.  The crown adorning the over-all arms is not the shape of the Russian crown, but the closed arches and the center frontal-facing helm, do indicate a family of significant rank. The manteling indicates to me, that the family/ies' heraldic colors are red and white. There also appear to be two "horned-shaped" items in the crest, that are often seen on "Germanic" coats-of-arms's crests.
  Unfortunately, I can't quite tell, but are there halos around the heads of the eagles in those particular quarters?  Russian eagles do not carry such, unlike the heraldic bicephalous eagles of the Holy Roman Empire.

  Regardless, these are (again) some INITIAL reactions, to be considered/ruled out.  
  
  Good luck on your research.     Regards,  AP.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 04:39:11 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Marc

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Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2012, 08:38:41 AM »
This double eagle was also a symbol of Holy Roman Empire called "doppeladler",holding a crown on it's two heads and sword and scepter in it's legs...plus,the colors of red and white indicates Austrian land colors...so,i guess,this was a Catholic Prince-Bishop of a High ranking church dignitary of some Austrian Princely family(German ones are a bit different) as the Crown in it's coat of arms indicates...

The second one is almost the same as one on the top of the coat of arms:


Offline Nicolay

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Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2013, 08:10:05 AM »
the center Shield on the right "hand" side, underlines the Austrian Empire "Theory"
because of "Kaernten"

and the lower right "hand" quarter show clearly the halos of the double headed eagle!

Also the Collar should be Lutheran- Protestant, which doesn't exclude a catholic family,

there is one similar, from Sweden "Pauli" but it's not identical... also this family originated from the "Kaernten Region"

http://www.svenskadel.nu/pauli.gif
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 08:16:55 AM by Nicolay »

Offline Nicolay

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Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2013, 03:41:28 AM »
At least we can be sure about the
right "hand" shield !

http://www.manfredhiebl.de/Genealogien/Goerz/grafen_von_goerz.htm

Offline wladimir

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Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2013, 03:53:15 AM »
Hello,
many thanks for all your informations!
Kind regards
W

Offline Nicolay

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Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2013, 06:12:26 AM »
To really determine to whom these arms belong, we need a better picture of the dark central shield on the left hand side!

Even with Photoshop it's hard to see/determine the charges.....!
;)

Offline wladimir

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Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2013, 03:56:23 PM »
Hello the best I can do.
Many thanks to you
Best regards
W


Offline mishaxenia

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Re: Identification Russian Nobles
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2013, 05:29:49 PM »
Please, this woman is identified as princess Orlov.  someone recognizes ?

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1723/immaginelrh.png

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Identification Russian Nobles
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2013, 03:00:34 PM »
It's only a partial likeness and sorry, I don't recognize her.

Offline mishaxenia

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Re: Identification Russian Nobles
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2013, 08:04:31 AM »
Please,  I would like your help,someone has a image of Irina  Naryshkin (1879-1917) ?  wife of Hilarion Vorontzov Dashkov, after the divorce married Serge Dolgoruky. His daughter Maria married Prince Nikita Romanov.   I found  news in some sites but no image.  Thanks !!!!!!!!!

Offline Veronica

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Re: Identification Russian Nobles
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2013, 07:21:12 PM »
Please excuse me for the quality, I took a photo of it because I don't have a scanner at hand right now. This image comes from the book about GD Xenia, "Once a grand duchess". I hope this helps.






Offline mishaxenia

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Re: Identification Russian Nobles
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2013, 05:03:20 PM »
Please excuse me for the quality, I took a photo of it because I don't have a scanner at hand right now. This image comes from the book about GD Xenia, "Once a grand duchess". I hope this helps.






Many thanks Veronica !!! perfect

Offline Veronica

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Re: Identification Russian Nobles
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2013, 05:20:58 PM »
You're welcome!