Author Topic: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction  (Read 31299 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

rskkiya

  • Guest
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2004, 06:56:07 PM »
In the case of this stabbing I think that the greatest health problem would have come from a nasty infection - after all  there were NO antibiotics available at this time!


rskkiya


Offline Richard_Cullen

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 373
  • Sad memory brings the light. Thomas Moore 1815
    • View Profile
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2004, 04:46:53 AM »
Rob, rskkiya

Thanks very much - I don't think it could have that serious as there are just no signs of a major wound.  Lots would depend on the penetration etc.  I think it could have only been external stitching because from my research I can find no evidence of internal stitching at this stage.

The infection bit is important - the waivering between life and death I think might have been R's story to impress.

Rob for your information my paper is all but finished I am just waiting for the Zharov permissions, GARF and Museum of Political History seem ok.  I am also looking forward to Andrew's book being published next year.

Thanks again.

Richard
I feel like one
Who treads alone
Some banquet-hall deserted,
Whose lights are fled,
Whose garlands dead,
And all, but he, departed!
Refrain:
Thus, in the stilly night,
Ere slumber’s chain hath bound me,
Sad mem’ry brings the light
Of other days around me.

Thomas Moore 1815

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2004, 05:40:02 PM »
I've read quite a few biographies on Rasputin, most unfavorable to him, but for some reason I always found him to be a sympathetic and likable character. Not to say that I think that he was a saint who was slandered, far from it, he was evidently an alcoholic, or at least had a very bad drinking problem, he was definitely a womanizer, and he often exhibited very poor sense of judgement, most likely due to his drinking, but all in all he seemed like a decent humane person, who liked to help people, especially the underdog, and not for the sake of his own financial gain, but just because he wanted to. And there seems to definitely be at least some truth to his "healing powers", that's an undeniable fact. People so often seem to take such a simplistic view of how they see historical figures, they are either "evil" or "good", whereas in reality, it's all so much more complicated. This was a man who was very complicated and human with many faults of a human being, but that kind of makes him more endearing in a way. He himself never claimed to be a saint, he always fully admitted that he was a sinner. Yet, compared to some others who were supposed to be upstanding citizens, he seems to have been so much less self-serving and much less pretentious. I think many people misunderstood the dynamics of the relationship he had with the emperor and empress, since very few knew about Alexei's hemophilia and hence they couldn't understand why Rasputin was held in such high regard by them, so they had to come up with reasons they could understand. I think his political influence was exaggerated, things appeared to be a certain way but it was mostly an illusion, and he ended up being the scapegoat in a lot of ways in the end.
I think it's so ridiculous that Rasputin is historically seen as an evil character, I've seen him compared to mentally ill despots like Caligula, Hitler or Stalin, who were truly insane and mass murderers, while this guy never killed anyone or anything even close to it. If you think about it he seems to have done a lot of good for some people who came to petition him  as he never liked to turn anyone away and even gave people who were very poor the money he got from the aristocracy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline BobAtchison

  • Moderator
  • Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
    • View Profile
    • The Alexander Palace
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2004, 06:28:42 PM »
Good posting Helen - I also think his social origins worked against him - the aristocracy only accepted him as an rustic ornament at parties or an exotic figure to add some temporary color to the Petersburg social scene.  When they became tired of Rasputin they discovered he wouldn't go away and was able to act without their permission or approval - so they turned on him.

A comparison with some of the social lights of Petersburg and most of the Romanovs themselves shows he was little different than them.  Who was a worse womanizer, Alexander Alexandrovich or Rasputin?  Who was a greater traitor to Russia, Cyril and the rest of the Vladinirovichi or Rasputin.

I don't mean to focus on these and perhaps my comparisons were unfair, but it does seem that many others were worse drunks or worse lechers or were involved in real conspiracies, not imagined ones.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by BobAtchison »

Offline BobAtchison

  • Moderator
  • Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
    • View Profile
    • The Alexander Palace
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2004, 06:42:57 PM »
Just like Marie Antoinette most of the people around Alix were attacked.  It was easier to attack them than to attack the Empress - or Nicholas) directly.

While Anna and Rasputin were easy targets they even went after Orbelani, Schneider and Hendrikova until they were dead.  The rumours and press reports - usually about sex or treason - were out of control.  Even Naryshkina was turned by them - she even thought Alix was a German spy for awhile.  If this could happen to someone so close to Alix as Naryskina imagine what the rest of society thought.

One of Alix's biggest problems was she was so quiet and shy, she seldom opened up to anyone and kept her thoughts to herself.  This meant people who should have known her well and have supported her didn't really have a clue about who she was as a human being.  They thought she was cold, haughty and uncaring when her shyness was the real problem.

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4442
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2004, 10:18:42 PM »
Quote
 They thought she was cold, haughty and uncaring when her shyness was the real problem.


Apart from her diffidence, her real problem was Alexei's illness. His condition, I believe caused her to internalize her emotions - which was misinterpreted as aloofness. How could she possibly pretend everything is fine and just when she was constantly aware that Alexei was or could suffer another traumatic episode at any moment and that the next event might be terminal?

Alexandra was unable to share her profound grief with most of the Romanov family, the Court and the Russian people. Such sorrow on all levels is incomprehensible to most us even today.

Perhaps if Alexei's condition was not a State secret compassion might have prevailed. It was an impossible situation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2005, 01:07:36 PM »
 I think it is true that Alexandra saw in Rasputin the only hope for her son, so she almost had no choice but accept him the way he was, bad or good. I think she truly believed that he had been sent to her by God since he seemed to be the only one who could help her son and was the only one who would give her hope by telling her that her son will be cured eventually, while all the doctors gave her much more hopeless prognosis. The most important thing to Alexandra was to keep her son alive and ease his suffering, everything else came second. IMO, the IF knew that Rasputin was far from being a saint, but yet because he was able to help Alexei, they felt that obviously he must be a "man of God", no matter what he did. They disregarded this more secular side of him, which was easy to do since they never really saw him drunk and acting rowdy or lecherous the way he tended to at times. Since it couldn't be disclosed why it was so important for the IF to have Rasputin near them, it seemed to the outsiders that they just wanted to have him around for other reasons and chose to close their eyes to his many indiscretions. So it seemed that Rasputin was able to do whatever he liked and get away with it and this is why after a while everyone was under the impression that he was running the show. Of course it didn't help that he would get drunk and say things in public to that effect, but this is where the impariment of his judgment came in because of his drinking.   Maybe if it weren't for that part of his personality, he may have been easier for everyone to accept, although I am sure there would still be intrigues against him only because of envy of his closeness to the IF, a mere peasant, while even other members of the IF were not allowed into the circle that easily.

Offline missmoldavite

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • See the divine in everything!
    • View Profile
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2005, 06:11:20 AM »
Yes. it's very sad. I have often wondered why the various accounts of Rasputin are so differring in opinions. Once I even wondered IF perhaps there were 2 of them. One was the real one(good one), and the other was a person dressed up like him, but behaving in a different manner entirely, so as to discredit him.

Its just seems so inconsistent, one does wonder.

Has anyone else read the book The Fall of the Russian Monarchy" by Sir Bernard Pares?, its very informative, of course,  he does tell the story from the viewpoint of the Romanovs, however one must remember he was attached to the Russian Army in the First World War and also to the British Ambassador in Petrograd in 1917.
A wealth of information. :P
The Power of Now!

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2005, 03:18:47 PM »
Quote
I have often wondered why the various accounts of Rasputin are so differring in opinions. Once I even wondered IF perhaps there were 2 of them. One was the real one(good one), and the other was a person dressed up like him, but behaving in a different manner entirely, so as to discredit him.
Its just seems so inconsistent, one does wonder.


I think that like many human beings, Rasputin was a complex person in a sense that he wasn't all good or all bad but some of both with a lot in the middle. Most likely he was also an alcoholic, and one of the traits of alcoholics is drastic personality changes while drinking. That could partially explain the difference in his personality as described by different people...

I think that if you want to get the clearest idea of what someone was like, take the best of what his enemies say about him and the worst of what his friends say about him and average it out - what you get is probably the closest picture of what someone was like  ;).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline missmoldavite

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • See the divine in everything!
    • View Profile
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2005, 05:51:49 AM »
Yes, to maintain a balanced view.
This forum is such a hothouse of information! ;D
The Power of Now!

Offline missmoldavite

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • See the divine in everything!
    • View Profile
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2005, 05:55:52 AM »
I read somewhere that Rasputin was deeply concerned as to his...promiscuity..and that afterwards he would become consumed with guilt. Apparently one day, after such a scene..he sat outside and asked God....well he looked up and saw some birds mating, apparently there was more than 2 birds invloved and he took this as a sign from God that it was OK. Well it certainly made me laugh...BUT it did get one wondering about things somewhat...? :o
The Power of Now!

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2005, 09:04:36 AM »
Rasputin used to say that in order to truly repent, one has to sin first, otherwise what is there to repent?  ;)  He used that phrase for his own, shall we say, benefits of course, but he may have actually believed it. He said that sinning brought one closer to God.  :)

bluetoria

  • Guest
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2005, 12:04:07 PM »
It's very easy to twist theology to suit yourself, isn't it? Maybe he did sincerely repent (who knows?) but his argument is a bit of a cop out, isn't it? It's a bit like saying 'I can be as unkind as I like because afterwards, when I apologize, it will draw me closer to the people to whom I have been unkind.' If he genuinely believed it, he must have had a very strange concept of God...one who would WANT people to sin just so He could see them grovelling in repentance?!  

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2005, 04:06:30 PM »
Quote
... he must have had a very strange concept of God...one who would WANT people to sin just so He could see them grovelling in repentance?!  
Yes, it seems that he actually did sort think along those lines.

bluetoria

  • Guest
Re: Rasputin: Fact vs. Fiction
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2005, 05:12:50 PM »
I think there is much in what he said that is eminently sensible and filled with sincerity but perhaps everything 'went to his head' and he became so full of his own importance that he was no longer talking about God at all - only himself. If his original idea was to combat hypocrisy that was fair enough, but for someone who criticised others for being judgemental, he himself was very judgemental of everyone...EVEN Ella who WAS a saint!