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Offline Lucien

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In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2009, 10:15:27 AM »
Lucien,
This announcement seems to lack genuiness, too many errors, ie all living Romanovs are Dukes, and he styles his brother as HIH, which is definately wrong.
There are others, but lets confirm it first,
cheers,
 


The HIH was something lost in translation,or rather found in translation,by me.

http://foto.fontanka.ru/items/2009/7/28/0014/2.jpg


Cheers Ilias.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 10:31:07 AM by Lucien »
Je Maintiendrai

Alixz

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Re: In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2009, 01:55:53 PM »
I was going to ask the same question.  Who did the translation?

This is what I copied from the other site:

“During my last visit to St. Petersburg, representatives of various news agencies asked me to comment on the announcement made by the spokesman of my relative, Maria Vladimirovna.

Firstly, I want to note once again, as has been noted many times before, that referring to Maria Vladimirovna as “Grand Duchess” is wrong and inaccurate. The last Grand Duchess of the Imperial Family undoubtedly was the sister of the late Emperor Nicholas II, Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, who died in Canada in 1960. Today, all living members of the Imperial Family bear the styles of “Dukes” and “Duchesses”.

Secondly, by right and by the acknowledgement of all other members of the Imperial Family, my elder brother, Prince Nikolai Romanov is the Head of the Family. As has been stated for numerous times, calling Maria Vladimirovna “Head of the Imperial Family” is wrong and misleading.

Thirdly, Maria Vladimirovna’s intention to settle down in Russia is a wish that has already been fulfilled by many former immigrant families. It is, however, very important to understand that Maria Vladimirovna is acting as a private citizen and her return does NOT symbolize the return of the House of Romanov. Any of Maria Vladimirovna’s representatives, advisers, lawyers or other associates do NOT act on behalf of the Romanov Imperial Family. They act on behalf of a private citizen Maria Vladimirovna, and nothing more.

As a conclusion, I would like to remind of a meeting that took place in Paris in 1992, which was attended by all the male-line descendants of the House of Romanov. During the meeting, we agreed that, considering all historical aspects, no member of the House of Romanov will ever put forward any claims or demands, or will not expect any privileges. No exceptions will ever be made. On the contrary, we decided to be useful for our Motherland to the best of our abilities. That’s when members of the Family decided to create the Romanov Fund for Russia.”


I don't read Russian, so I suppose there is a reference to HIH in the original somewhere, but I don't see it here.

However, I thought that all descendants were Prince or Princess and that the title of Grand Duke or Grand Duchess was only to be used for those in direct line from a reigning emperor. Where does this Duke or Duchess title come in?

We all know that Kyrill changed titles and bestowed them on his offspring.  He was a grand duke, but he was never a reigning emperor (only in his own mind) and so Maria Vladimirovna could not be a Grand Duchess.

I am always in great confusion about the direct lines and the present claimants to the throne.  It looks like the Romanovs are just as confused as I am.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2009, 09:18:06 AM »
I was going to ask the same question.  Who did the translation?

This is what I copied from the other site:

“During my last visit to St. Petersburg, representatives of various news agencies asked me to comment on the announcement made by the spokesman of my relative, Maria Vladimirovna.

Firstly, I want to note once again, as has been noted many times before, that referring to Maria Vladimirovna as “Grand Duchess” is wrong and inaccurate. The last Grand Duchess of the Imperial Family undoubtedly was the sister of the late Emperor Nicholas II, Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, who died in Canada in 1960. Today, all living members of the Imperial Family bear the styles of “Dukes” and “Duchesses”.

Secondly, by right and by the acknowledgement of all other members of the Imperial Family, my elder brother, Prince Nikolai Romanov is the Head of the Family. As has been stated for numerous times, calling Maria Vladimirovna “Head of the Imperial Family” is wrong and misleading.

Thirdly, Maria Vladimirovna’s intention to settle down in Russia is a wish that has already been fulfilled by many former immigrant families. It is, however, very important to understand that Maria Vladimirovna is acting as a private citizen and her return does NOT symbolize the return of the House of Romanov. Any of Maria Vladimirovna’s representatives, advisers, lawyers or other associates do NOT act on behalf of the Romanov Imperial Family. They act on behalf of a private citizen Maria Vladimirovna, and nothing more.

As a conclusion, I would like to remind of a meeting that took place in Paris in 1992, which was attended by all the male-line descendants of the House of Romanov. During the meeting, we agreed that, considering all historical aspects, no member of the House of Romanov will ever put forward any claims or demands, or will not expect any privileges. No exceptions will ever be made. On the contrary, we decided to be useful for our Motherland to the best of our abilities. That’s when members of the Family decided to create the Romanov Fund for Russia.”


I don't read Russian, so I suppose there is a reference to HIH in the original somewhere, but I don't see it here.

However, I thought that all descendants were Prince or Princess and that the title of Grand Duke or Grand Duchess was only to be used for those in direct line from a reigning emperor. Where does this Duke or Duchess title come in?

We all know that Kyrill changed titles and bestowed them on his offspring.  He was a grand duke, but he was never a reigning emperor (only in his own mind) and so Maria Vladimirovna could not be a Grand Duchess.

I am always in great confusion about the direct lines and the present claimants to the throne.  It looks like the Romanovs are just as confused as I am.

The Romanovs are not confused - there is just a long standing difference of opinion within the family that dates to at least the time of the Revolution.

The majority of the family believes the dynasty became extinct upon the death of the last dynasty, Prince Vasili Alexandrovich, in 1989. In 1992, the males in the family met in Paris and formed the RFA, which is dedicated to doing charitable work. They refuse to entertain any ideas of restoration.

However, they use courtesy titles of Prince and Princess Romanov. They have a system of succession that does not mimic the dynasty's, and most importantly, women are completely excluded from it.

The current head of the RFA is Prince Nicholas Romanovich, who is in his 80's. He has no sons, and his successor also has no children.

Members of the RFA are all descended from the Romanovs who left Russia via the Crimea. Upon the deaths of Nicholas R and his brother, Dmitri, all of the RFA members will be descendants of Nicholas II's sister, Xenia, and her husband, Sandro.

On the other side is Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna. She's the great grandaughter of Grand Duke Kiril and Grand Duchess Victoria Melita. He of the declaring allegiance to the Provisional Government and she the divorced former wife of Alexandra's brother Ernst Ludwig.

Maria and her ancestors are the heirs to the imperial dynasty. They believe in the Fundamental Law and require equal marriage, which is why the dynasty now consists of 3 people. They are pro-restoration.

Hope this clears some of this up.

Alixz

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Re: In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2009, 09:39:36 AM »
Lisa - That you for the much simpler explanation.  It does clear up the two different factions.

However, while I know that Nicholas II restored Kyrill to his rights and privileges, did he also acknowledge Victoria Melita as a legitimate and equal spouse?  She was a divorcee after all.

Why wouldn't the laws of secession have skipped Kyrill and gone to Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich?

Or is it just the case that Kyrill and Ducky wanted it more and kept working for it even during the worst of times.  They sort of just out waited everyone else who either died or denounced their own claims?

Offline Lucien

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In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2009, 10:09:35 AM »
http://www.fontanka.ru/2009/07/28/105/

And then there is Prince Rostislav Rostislavovitch,living and studying in St.Petersburg.Both Prince Nikolai and Dmitry seem to "raise" him as an Heir
and future claimant to the headship of the House,as was mentioned on "the other side" Alixz referred to.
Je Maintiendrai

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2009, 02:19:31 AM »
Lisa - That you for the much simpler explanation.  It does clear up the two different factions.

However, while I know that Nicholas II restored Kyrill to his rights and privileges, did he also acknowledge Victoria Melita as a legitimate and equal spouse?  She was a divorcee after all.

Why wouldn't the laws of secession have skipped Kyrill and gone to Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich?

Or is it just the case that Kyrill and Ducky wanted it more and kept working for it even during the worst of times.  They sort of just out waited everyone else who either died or denounced their own claims?

The issue of divorce is not covered in the Fundamental Law. Victoria Melita was a grandchild of the Tsar Liberator, as were Dmitri, Nicholas, and Kiril. Therefore, there was no legal basis to exclude her as a suitable spouse for Kiril. The objections to her were twofold. First, there is an Orthodox rule against marrying cousins (and Ducky married first cousins of herself in both marriages). The second was that she and Kiril married without the Emperor's permission.

These objections were resolved and the couple was able to return to Russia.

At the time of the Revolution, the succession was:

1. Alexei
2. Michael
3. Kiril
4. Boris
5. Andrei
6. Paul
7. Dmitri
8. Ioann
9. Vsevlod
10. Gabriel

The whole purpose of the Fundamental Law, by the way, was to make the succession to the throne certain and lawful, therefore Dmitri could not have jumped places by skipping over other heirs.

By 1919, the succession had changed dramatically, due to the deaths of Alexei (#1), Michael (#2), Paul (#6), and Ioann (#8). That's 4 of the top 6 dynasts murdered in a period of less than 2 years.

So by February 1919, it looked like this (and Kiril became Emperor de jure upon the death of Michael):

1. Vladimir (born 1917)
2. Boris
3. Andrei
4. Dmitri
5. Vsevlod
6. Gabriel
7. George
8. Nicholas (aka Nicholasha, general in charge of Russian army in WWI)
9. Peter

Maria V is Vladimir's (#1 in 1919) only daughter (and only child for that matter). When Dmitri Pavlovich died, he was still 4th in the succession. Nicholas Romanovich, head of the RFA, is the grandson of Peter (#9).

So, this is why I've said, if George, Maria V's only son, does not marry equally, it's all over in terms of the dynasty, although there would be some nominal succession from Ducky and Kiril's daughters.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2009, 04:13:35 AM »
There appears to have been a conference of Russian opposition leaders in July, and they called their symposium "Russia after Putin".
Anyway, one of the possible suggestions on limiting the powers of future Russian Head Of State is to find or appoint a constitutional Monarch.
Below is what I found

" One of the prominent Russian politicians recently disclosed that the Kremlin Administration is considering reinstatement of Monarchy (constitutional Monarchy) in Russia, akin to the British model. The Russian Government believes that the Monarch could be the person who would be able to unify the country and serve as an important symbol in troublesome times.

Now, it appears that the Opposition has much the same views.

It can now be revealed that during the recent conference of the Russian opposition (named “Russia after Putin”), leaders of the opposition were discussing the possibility of a Monarchy in Russia. The conference, which took place in July, was attended by all prominent opposition leaders, among them Garry Kasparov, Boris Nemtsov and Vladimir Milov.

However imperfect the current system is, opposition leaders fear that drastic change of the “Putin regime” may lead to the destruction of the country itself. One thing that can ’save the country from such fate’ is a Monarch who will be above politics and who will unify the people. Therefore, the opposition leaders decreed that it would be a wise move to “invite one of the Romanovs to reign over Russia, for the sake of liberal ideas”.

No, this is not a joke. And yes, the idea was seriously discussed for more than an hour and appeared to score considerable support.

Well, it certainly looks like it’s only a matter of time until one of the Romanovs is asked to come and “Reign over Russia”: after all, there are precedents of similar ‘invitations’ in the History of Russia. It remains to be seen who will be quicker – the Government or the Opposition.
There is a hope they will not forget to ask ordinary Russian people what they think about it though.

Me again now......
This is probably the reason why we have seen the RFA make this recent announcement.
I am inclined to think that we may be in for interesting times in Russia, and curious to see what will happen in the next 10 years or so,and if we DO see a restoration, what sort of Constitutional Monarchy we will see there.
Irrespective, I'll go and attend the Imperial Coronation, I just dont know who will be getting Crowned,becoming Emperor/ess Of the Russians!

cheers.............
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline Lucien

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In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2009, 05:16:57 AM »
Your prominent Russian politician is Alexander Belov I suppose,he's been noisy lately,with his party, MAII (Movement Against Illegal Immigration),
the latest of populist cry babies.He is the one that favours a return of a Monarchy,if he has a say in it that is,and that is not exactly along the lines of the British concept.(As if there is only THAT concept of a Constitutional Monarchy...)... ::)....

It is summer and cucumber-time and that is contagious in terms of the funniest/silliest/rediculous assumptions/non-news flashes  dear Ilias ;D
Je Maintiendrai

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2009, 05:24:22 AM »
Actually old pal,
I have no idea who the populist politicians in Russia are, I don't really care either.
Anyway, whoever they are, they dont appear to have much say at all, seeing that Putin seems to have it all whilst being everywhere at all times.
As for cucumbers, I tend to like mine with some salt, it adds flavour to their 98% water content!
:)
Must be the heat in summer......
cheers,

Also,
 another politcian there was a bloke called Kasparov, apparently he plays chess!
And what's wrong with the Constituitional Monarchy Government of the UK and the Commonwealth, it seems to work fine, when every one follows the rules!


« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 05:32:27 AM by Ilias_of_John »
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2009, 07:34:23 PM »
There appears to have been a conference of Russian opposition leaders in July, and they called their symposium "Russia after Putin".
Anyway, one of the possible suggestions on limiting the powers of future Russian Head Of State is to find or appoint a constitutional Monarch.
Below is what I found

" One of the prominent Russian politicians recently disclosed that the Kremlin Administration is considering reinstatement of Monarchy (constitutional Monarchy) in Russia, akin to the British model. The Russian Government believes that the Monarch could be the person who would be able to unify the country and serve as an important symbol in troublesome times.

Now, it appears that the Opposition has much the same views.

It can now be revealed that during the recent conference of the Russian opposition (named “Russia after Putin”), leaders of the opposition were discussing the possibility of a Monarchy in Russia. The conference, which took place in July, was attended by all prominent opposition leaders, among them Garry Kasparov, Boris Nemtsov and Vladimir Milov.

However imperfect the current system is, opposition leaders fear that drastic change of the “Putin regime” may lead to the destruction of the country itself. One thing that can ’save the country from such fate’ is a Monarch who will be above politics and who will unify the people. Therefore, the opposition leaders decreed that it would be a wise move to “invite one of the Romanovs to reign over Russia, for the sake of liberal ideas”.

No, this is not a joke. And yes, the idea was seriously discussed for more than an hour and appeared to score considerable support.

Well, it certainly looks like it’s only a matter of time until one of the Romanovs is asked to come and “Reign over Russia”: after all, there are precedents of similar ‘invitations’ in the History of Russia. It remains to be seen who will be quicker – the Government or the Opposition.
There is a hope they will not forget to ask ordinary Russian people what they think about it though.

Me again now......
This is probably the reason why we have seen the RFA make this recent announcement.
I am inclined to think that we may be in for interesting times in Russia, and curious to see what will happen in the next 10 years or so,and if we DO see a restoration, what sort of Constitutional Monarchy we will see there.
Irrespective, I'll go and attend the Imperial Coronation, I just dont know who will be getting Crowned,becoming Emperor/ess Of the Russians!

cheers.............


Ilias:

There would certainly be a wealth of candidates:

1. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna b. 1953 - She is recognized as head of the dynasty by many people and has devoted her life to her Imperial career as Curatrix of the Dynasty. She has an unmarried son. Negatives would be her gender and her son's lack of spouse. Odds? Even.

2. Grand Duke George Michaelovich b.1981 - He is the son of Maria (above) and now works for a Russian company. He looks to be reasonably intelligent and was schooled by his grandfather as a boy to assume his Imperial duties. Negatives would be his lack of an equal marriage and his youth. Odds? 2-1.

3. Prince Rostislav Rostislavovich b. 1985 - He is the son of the late Prince Rostislav Rostislavovich and is now in Russia to learn the language. He is a direct line descendant of Alexander III (Alexander III - Xenia - Rostislav Alexandrovich (1902 -1978) - Rostislav Rostislavovich (1938 - 1999) - Rostislav Rostislavovich (b 1985)) - which means of the 3, he is the closest heir to the last tsar, as he is Nicholas II's great-great grand nephew. He is also descended  through his grandmother, Princess Alexandra Pavlovna Galitzine, from the House of Rurik which ruled Russia prior to the Romanovs. Born in the USA, raised in the UK, does anyone hear a song? Odds 4-1, but for whatever it's worth, he has my vote, which is why I list no negatives. (His father was a friend of mine, and all of us "Friends of Rosti" miss him!).

Anybody have other candidates or different odds?

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2009, 07:46:15 PM »
I have always thought that the family of Grand Duchess Xenia, Nicholas II's sister where closest to the throne.
The late Prince Michael Andreevich who passed away last year was a dear friend.
However, many friends of mine disagree with me, and they too were friends of Prince Michael.
He himself never mentioned anything at all about a claim to me, apart from the desire for the Russian people to decide.
Its all up to them and PM Putin I guess.
Maria V is a lovely lady,and she has got a strong claim, yet the fact that her grandfaher backed the provisional Government and put on the Red armband somehow alienates her doesent it? However, I know that in the 1920's 20 odd Dukes and Princess of Russia accepted her grandfather as the Tsar in Exile.
Time will tell.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 07:53:01 PM by Ilias_of_John »
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Honour the king.
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Offline Vecchiolarry

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Re: In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2009, 11:14:41 PM »
Hi,

Oh come on Lisa - vote for me!!!  You know me and love me dearly, I'm sure and would love to see me in the Winter Palace - giving you and Jeff a grand ball to welcome you to Imperial Russia!!!

Odds on me as Czar - not bloody likely....

Just inserting some humour into the thread....

Larry

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2009, 01:11:48 AM »
Hi,

Oh come on Lisa - vote for me!!!  You know me and love me dearly, I'm sure and would love to see me in the Winter Palace - giving you and Jeff a grand ball to welcome you to Imperial Russia!!!

Odds on me as Czar - not bloody likely....

Just inserting some humour into the thread....

Larry

Oh Larry - you certainly know how to throw a party and show us a good time!

Offline Lucien

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Re: In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2009, 01:12:35 AM »
Hi,

Oh come on Lisa - vote for me!!!  You know me and love me dearly, I'm sure and would love to see me in the Winter Palace - giving you and Jeff a grand ball to welcome you to Imperial Russia!!!

Odds on me as Czar - not bloody likely....

Just inserting some humour into the thread....

Larry

Have you tryed Disneyland for a Tsar Larry... ;D :D
Je Maintiendrai

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: In Case of a Restoration, ...
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2009, 05:35:39 AM »
So much for the seriousness of the conversation..........
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17