Author Topic: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra  (Read 27305 times)

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Offline Belochka

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2006, 09:35:09 PM »
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Quote
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PS Lili believe Anna WAS Anastasia......

According to the Russian language link provided by Matushka, the presumption in the above quote is incorrect.

"[ch1053][ch1077][ch1090]. [ch1057] [ch1087][ch1077][ch1088][ch1074][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1074][ch1079][ch1075][ch1083][ch1103][ch1076][ch1072] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1091][ch1079][ch1085][ch1072][ch1102] [ch1077][ch1077]", - [ch1089][ch1082][ch1072][ch1079][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1088][ch1091][ch1075][ch1072] [ch1094][ch1072][ch1088][ch1080][ch1094][ch1099], [ch1091][ch1074][ch1080][ch1076][ch1077][ch1074] [ch1089][ch1072][ch1084][ch1086][ch1079][ch1074][ch1072][ch1085][ch1082][ch1091]. [ch1042] [ch1090][ch1086][ch1084], [ch1095][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1085][ch1072] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1089][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1085][ch1080][ch1082][ch1086][ch1080][ch1084] [ch1086][ch1073][ch1088][ch1072][ch1079][ch1086][ch1084] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1072][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1089][ch1080][ch1103], [ch1090][ch1088][ch1077][ch1079][ch1074][ch1086][ch1084][ch1099][ch1089][ch1083][ch1103][ch1097][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1051][ch1080][ch1083][ch1080] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1086][ch1084][ch1085][ch1077][ch1074][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072][ch1089][ch1100] ([ch1095][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1080] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1090][ch1074][ch1077][ch1088][ch1076][ch1080][ch1083] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1084][ch1077][ch1088][ch1090][ch1080] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1089][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1072][ch1085][ch1072][ch1083][ch1080][ch1079] [ch1044][ch1053][ch1050]), ..."

"No. From first sight (I) don't recognize her", - said the Tsaritsa's friend, seeing the imposter. In that, Anna Anderson is not Anastasia in any way, clearheaded Lili had no doubt (and which DNA analysis confirmed after Anderson's death), ..."

Yes; she wrote it. She didn't recognized her at the first sight, but the quote is not complete.

I'm sorry that I can't write in Russian. .... I do not think that a translation could change a "yes" in a "no" or vice-versa:

You are right. DNA said that AA was not Anastasia
RealAnastasia.

RealAnastasia,

In view of your own words informing us that you "can't write in Russian", kindly please inform me where I have erred in my Russian translation of the linked document provided by Matushka?

I eagerly await your response.

Thank you.


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Offline pentetorri

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2006, 05:30:38 PM »
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
PS Lili believe Anna WAS Anastasia......

According to the Russian language link provided by Matushka, the presumption in the above quote is incorrect.

"[ch1053][ch1077][ch1090]. [ch1057] [ch1087][ch1077][ch1088][ch1074][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1074][ch1079][ch1075][ch1083][ch1103][ch1076][ch1072] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1091][ch1079][ch1085][ch1072][ch1102] [ch1077][ch1077]", - [ch1089][ch1082][ch1072][ch1079][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1088][ch1091][ch1075][ch1072] [ch1094][ch1072][ch1088][ch1080][ch1094][ch1099], [ch1091][ch1074][ch1080][ch1076][ch1077][ch1074] [ch1089][ch1072][ch1084][ch1086][ch1079][ch1074][ch1072][ch1085][ch1082][ch1091]. [ch1042] [ch1090][ch1086][ch1084], [ch1095][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1085][ch1072] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1089][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1085][ch1080][ch1082][ch1086][ch1080][ch1084] [ch1086][ch1073][ch1088][ch1072][ch1079][ch1086][ch1084] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1072][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1089][ch1080][ch1103], [ch1090][ch1088][ch1077][ch1079][ch1074][ch1086][ch1084][ch1099][ch1089][ch1083][ch1103][ch1097][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1051][ch1080][ch1083][ch1080] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1086][ch1084][ch1085][ch1077][ch1074][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072][ch1089][ch1100] ([ch1095][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1080] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1090][ch1074][ch1077][ch1088][ch1076][ch1080][ch1083] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1084][ch1077][ch1088][ch1090][ch1080] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1089][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1072][ch1085][ch1072][ch1083][ch1080][ch1079] [ch1044][ch1053][ch1050]), ..."

"No. From first sight (I) don't recognize her", - said the Tsaritsa's friend, seeing the imposter. In that, Anna Anderson is not Anastasia in any way, clearheaded Lili had no doubt (and which DNA analysis confirmed after Anderson's death), ..."

Yes; she wrote it. She didn't recognized her at the first sight, but the quote is not complete.

I'm sorry that I can't write in Russian. .... I do not think that a translation could change a "yes" in a "no" or vice-versa:

You are right. DNA said that AA was not Anastasia
RealAnastasia.

RealAnastasia,

In view of your own words informing us that you "can't write in Russian", kindly please inform me where I have erred in my Russian translation of the linked document provided by Matushka?

I eagerly await your response.

Thank you.

Real Anastasia is not saying you have erred in your translation but that the quote is incomplete. Please, remember you are translating from a website, not all websites are correct or reliable as sources, Russian or whatever languages they are written.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2006, 01:52:56 AM »
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 ... not all websites are correct or reliable as sources, Russian or whatever languages they are written.

Ms Dehn never believed that the person was anything but an imposter, but her carefully structured words were misinterpreted decades ago and that  misinterpretation incorrectly offered a different complexion.

Those fully conversant in a number of languages have encountered flawed translations where spoken statements were taken out of context, losing their original intent on paper.

Sadly the new inquirer relies on that flawed translation, rather than seeking out the original for confirmation; as a consequence, they believe that this interpretation bears the semblance of accuracy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline pentetorri

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2006, 05:39:24 AM »
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 ... not all websites are correct or reliable as sources, Russian or whatever languages they are written.

Ms Dehn never believed that the person was anything but an imposter, but her carefully structured words were misinterpreted decades ago and that  misinterpretation incorrectly offered a different complexion.

Those fully conversant in a number of languages have encountered flawed translations where spoken statements were taken out of context, losing their original intent on paper.

Sadly the new inquirer relies on that flawed translation, rather than seeking out the original for confirmation; as a consequence, they believe that this interpretation bears the semblance of accuracy.

I have to rely on sources translated by reliable and known translators rather than in individuals I do not know their credentials and who discredit so openly others people's work.

Please, as you are "fully conversant in a number of languages" cite the books on this subject which are wrongly translated so we can contact the editors and warn them of such mistakes and misleading translations.

My personal opinion is that if we have to go everytime to the original source to read the statements in their original language we are in serious trouble. Publishing houses, books, and translators would be useless .

Most of the members in this forum are "fully conversant in a number languages" but I think most of us would find kind of pretentious to arrogate the role of discrediting translations of professionals and published works .  I would be more cautious in the future before releasing statements as yours. At the very least cite your sources, and for sources I mean published works, documents from archives, but certainly not websites.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2006, 11:25:39 PM »
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My personal opinion is that if we have to go everytime to the original source to read the statements in their original language we are in serious trouble. Publishing houses, books, and translators would be useless .

In some cases one single word or grouping can be taken out of context because there is no direct word that can be offered by a second language. The use of "best fit" by application from a selection of synonyms - may remove the gloss of the original word.

Awareness that flawed translations do occur is a reality we live with which may only concern a few. It can be very relevant when dealing with legal or historic documentation as but two examples.

Alexander Pushkin's poetry can be very difficult to translate into English. Numerous published translations of the same poem are published and re-published as revitalized works. Whose translation is more preferable? Which more accurately reflect Pushkin intent? Is the literal translation more superior? and so on ...

We have strayed from this thread, but what I am attempting to demonstrate is that a translator, no matter how skilled will present a different product to that of another having the same words in front of them. Factors that dictate why such variances occur are remote to this discussion.

To conclude, my comment returns to Julia Dehn. Her spoken words may have been not quite as they seemed on first sight.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline strom

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2006, 03:16:29 PM »
To all those interested in the testimony of Lili Dehn re the identity of Anna Anderson Manahan and the GD Anastasia Nicooleavna it seems to me that Peter Kurth's account is hard to refut!  Perhaps Peter Kurth himself can add something more?

Offline Nadya_Arapov

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2008, 04:06:46 AM »
Has anyone on the board ever heard of Dmitri Leonidovich Horvath (1858-1937) before?

He was Lili Dehn's maternal uncle. She mentions him at least once in her memoirs: "The great event at Revovka was the visit of my uncle Horvat who came from Siberia to see my grandmother once a year. He was head of the Siberian railways..."

Until recently I never realized that he had played a significant role in the White Movement in Siberia. Let alone that he had staged not one but two attempted coups in 1918!

Gen. Horvath was described as a charismatic man, sophisticated and extremely opportunistic. He served as the general manager of the Chinese Eastern Railway and as governor of the railway zone. He had a large treasury at his disposal, served as the commander of the local Russian troops, had the power to appoint judges, and recruited a “police force” made up of Chinese mercenaries who served as his personal militia. Ultimately, Horvath answered not to the Tsar, but to the French directors of the Russo-Asiatic Bank and the railway’s stockholders. From his office at Harbin he ruled as a virtual potentate from 1902 until 1918.

After the Revolution, Horvath refused to commit to either the Whites or the Bolsheviks. At the time he controlled the largest workforce in Manchuria and both groups vied for his support. He received them all courteously attempting to play one side off the other. He only joined the White Movement after they appeared to have gained an advantage locally.

In March 1918, Horvath was approached by Col. Kurosawa Jun. On behalf of the Japanese Government, the Colonel promised to recognize Horvath as the Russian leader in Siberia, and to provide him with military and financial support. However, he asked a great deal in return. He demanded that Horvath allow Japanese ships to freely navigate the Amur River, that they be given unlimited fishing rights, and have unchecked use of Siberia's mines and timber. He also wanted Horvath to de-fortify Vladivostok and open the port. Horvath refused his offer and instead appealed to the US Government for help.

On May 16th, Horvath was chosen to command the "All-Russian troops in Eastern Siberia." His troops would gain a reputation for being quite brutal.

At Harbin on July 14, 1918, Horvath appointed a Provisional War Cabinet. The members were a diverse group including former Duma members, among them a Constitutional Democrat, two socialists, Kerensky's former Vice Minister of Communications, and a director of the Russo-Asiatic Bank. There was also General Flug, the former Military Governor of Vladivostok, and last, but not least, he appointed Admiral Kolchak (then serving as commander of Russian forces at Harbin) as a provisional member.

Unity within the hodgepodge cabinet was short-lived. On July 25th, 1918, Adm. Kolchak announced the creation of the All-Siberian Government at Omsk, claiming authority over all Siberia. Not to be out done, on August 25th Horvath proclaimed himself to be dictator of Siberia. 

From "King's Complete History of the World War," by William C. King (1922) Page 594: 

"After the Allies had sent troops into Siberia, and the Czecho-Slovaks, had succeeded in expelling the Bolsheviki out of Vladivostok, General Horvath proclaimed himself supreme ruler of the Far East and started with a motley army to crown himself as "Emperor of the East" in the Cathedral of Vladivostok. The allied powers, however, gave Horvath no encouragement in his Imperial designs. Instead they disarmed his army, and gave their support to the local officials who had set up a regional government for Vladivostok and the vicinity.”

Horvath did not give up, however. He made a second attempt at a coup d'etat on October 7th, 1918. This attempt was thwarted by the Czech and Slovak soldiers at Omsk. Two days later Kolchak and Horvath reached an agreement and joined forces.

After Kolchak's defeat in 1919, Horvath returned to Harbin, where he spent the rest of his life working for the Chinese as a railway management consultant.

Offline Talya

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2011, 06:33:56 PM »
Just a note, Lili Dehn and Anna Vyrubova were distant cousins through Mikhail Kutuzov ;)

Her Great-aunt, Baroness Nina Pilar, was in love with a certain Grand Duke Nicholas, and the problem is, she wrote no patrynom end! He was in love too, but when he asked Alexander II to marry her, he said no. The lovers were heart broken, etc etc. I'm wonder who this Nicholas was. All I know is he eventually married....
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Offline ashdean

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2011, 11:49:29 AM »
Reading Julia Dehn's book posted on this website, I noticed that there were  some passages in French, in the otherwise all English text. That implies that the original text was not in French. Because if it realy were a translation from French into English then the translator would not have left thouse couple of passages in French. Also, once or twice Lili (Julia) refers her English language readers directly. On the other hand, Anna Vyrubova has mentioned that during her time at the palace, Lili Dehn did not speak any English.
I am sure I have read that Lili as a child had a English governess...Miss Ripe.

Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2011, 09:20:19 PM »
It's certainly  not mandatory, but I would think anyone that close to Alix had to know some English. It always intrigued me that  AV spoke English . This would give one a leg up with AF

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Offline Sunny

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2011, 04:40:17 AM »
It's certainly  not mandatory, but I would think anyone that close to Alix had to know some English. It always intrigued me that  AV spoke English . This would give one a leg up with AF

You're right, all the letters from Alix to AV were in english. AV knew operfectly english, i'm sure. I know english, as you can see, but it's not easy for me to read Alix's handwriting. I really can't understand the letters, LOL.
Maybe LIli knew english too. Evene because Alix's russian was far from perfect, and she would be in trouble going on speaking only in russian, IMHO.
In his accounts, Pankratov rememebered that Alix's russian was correct, but she had a strong accent and it was clear that russian was hard for her
I'm using my own words to quote from: The fall of the R, page 261. The exact quote is: AF pronounced Russian words with a strong accent, and it was noticeable tha she had hard time with the spoken Russian language. But all her children spoke excellent Russian.

So it's easy tha Lili, as a noble russian woman, spoke good english.
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Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2011, 08:22:05 PM »
ButSo it's easy tha Lili, as a noble russian woman, spoke good english.
Actually it makes sense since English nannies had been in vogue for some time at that point ...as well as English business managers .  Both Lili and Anya could of had one

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2011, 01:32:51 AM »
ButSo it's easy tha Lili, as a noble russian woman, spoke good english.
Actually it makes sense since English nannies had been in vogue for some time at that point ...as well as English business managers .  Both Lili and Anya could of had one

Perfectly right. A well educated russian woman of the time surely had a english nanny. Evene Lev Tolstoj had one!
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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2011, 02:23:24 AM »
English tutors and governesses were also very fashionable.

Ann

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Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2011, 11:44:45 AM »
English tutors and governesses were also very fashionable.

Ann
Indeed a very interesting aspect to Russian history at this time

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