Author Topic: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders  (Read 23661 times)

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Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2009, 03:33:40 PM »
I'm going to ask that specific discussion of haemophilia take place in a separate thread.  Please split off the appropriate posts and start there. It has become OT here.

Thanks
FA

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2009, 09:26:28 AM »
I did a little research of my own on platelet disorders:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/201722-overview

Autoimmune thrombocytopenias
Immune thrombocytopenic purpura1,2,3

Immune thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP) is one of the most common autoimmune disorders. It occurs in 2 distinct clinical types, an acute self-limiting form observed almost exclusively in children (5 cases per 100,000 persons), and a chronic form, observed mostly in adults (3-5 cases per 100,000 persons) and rarely in children.

Acute ITP is a disease that occurs exclusively in children. It affects both sexes equally and has a peak incidence in children aged 3-5 years.  Most patients have a history of an antecedent acute viral syndrome.

Oh, dear. Here we go again...

There are a number of blood disorders that include the word Thrombocytopenia in their names... but...

Thrombocytopenia by itself is not a disease. It is only a symptom of disease.

Thrombocytopenia is nothing more than a fancy ten-dollar word that means an unusually low platelet count.  

Thrombocytopenia can be caused by any number of things.  It can be induced by drugs, pregancy, viral infections, cancer, lupus, anaemia, leukemia, ITP and TTP, and any number of other hemolytic disorders.

See: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/thrombocytopenia/DS00691
and
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/MEDLINEPLUS/ency/article/000586.htm

JK
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 09:31:49 AM by J_Kendrick »

Alixz

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Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2009, 11:49:28 AM »
Yes, Mr. Kendrick - I know that.  That is why I posted all the explanations that I did and also the links.


"Thrombocytopenia can be caused by any number of things.  It can be induced by drugs, pregnancy, viral infections, cancer, lupus, anaemia, leukemia, ITP and TTP, and any number of other hemolytic disorders."  


My point being that Alexei did not take drugs, was never pregnant, did not have the symptoms of cancer, lupus, anaemia, or leukemia (another cancer).  He may have had viral infections and he also may have had ITP or TTP, but since both of those are equally distributed between boys and girls and one is most often found in females, (and there is no report of any females in the Victorian line having had similar symptoms) I think that saying he may have had any of these diseases instead of hemophilia is stretching facts to fit your case.

Now tell me again how I must be able to read minds or know things that others do not.  That was rude and unnecessary.  

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2009, 04:59:35 PM »
Yes, Mr. Kendrick - I know that.  That is why I posted all the explanations that I did and also the links.

My point being that Alexei... did not have the symptoms of cancer, lupus, anaemia, or leukemia (another cancer).  
... I think that saying he may have had any of these diseases instead of hemophilia is stretching facts to fit your case.



There are some 150 possible blood disorders now known to modern medicine that all have a hemorrhagic diathesis.  Some three dozen of those same possible blood disorders known to modern medicine can also be acquired through X-linked inheritance.
  
No one can know for certain which of those same possible blood disorders Alexei did or did not have until the day comes when those now very necessary genetic tests have finally been done in the laboratory to either confirm or refute the now popular -- but still unproven -- interpretation of history.

Those who do tend to bleed easily as the result of having a deficiency of the blood Factors VIII or IX do not generally suffer fevers as a primary symptom of their disorder... just as Alexei had done.  However.... Those who tend to bleed easily as a result of having a platelet disorder do generally suffer fevers during their most serious episodes... just as Alexei had done.

Those who tend to bleed easily as the result of having a deficiency of the blood Factors VIII or IX do not show evidence of spontaneous recovery during their most serious hemorrhaging episodes... just as Alexei had done.  However.... Those who tend to bleed easily as a result of having a platelet disorder do show evidence of spontaneous recovery during their most serious episodes... just as Alexei had done.

Those who tend to bleed easily as the result of having a deficiency of the blood Factors VIII or IX do not show evidence of delirium during their most serious hemorrhaging episodes... just as Alexei had done... and do not show evidence of epileptic fits... just as Leopold had done.  However.... Those who tend to bleed easily as a result of having a platelet disorder do show evidence of delirium during their most serious hemorrhaging episodes... just as Alexei had done... and do show evidence of epileptic fits... just as Leopold had done.

All of these same issues have already been discussed and reviewed here many times before and can be found both in the archives of this board... and in the American Journal of Hematology.

JK
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 05:13:13 PM by J_Kendrick »

Alixz

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Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2009, 09:19:43 PM »
And again I ask you why you don't take a hand in getting these tests done.  If you are so sure that Alexei did not have hemophilia then it is still incumbent on you to have the testing done.

Whether or not the scientists who have possession of the material needed for testing had said they would do and haven't done it, that should not stop you from contacting them and offering your assistance in money or references or anything else that would bring this to a close.

Most of us don't truly care what disease Alexei suffered from.  You seem to care very much.

There must be more you can do to get your case acknowledged, tested and results published.  Why is that you think everyone else should do the work but you?  You are the one with the hunger to know.

I started this second thread because FA asked me to.  He is my boss.  

For everything that you have posted, I have found opposites.  For everything that I have posted you have found opposites.

As I said way back when this was under the Heino Tammet thread.  If you want to see the testing done and the final results published, then no one is stopping you from doing so.  You pester us here, I am sure that you could pester the Russians just as effectively.

Actually there are probably members of this forum who have contacts (I don't) who could get you introduced to those who could help you in your quest.  But you just sit there and espouse your opinions all the while waiting for someone else to do the work for you.

Go for it, Mr. Kendrick.  You will be a world hero if you can prove without a doubt that Alexei didn't have hemophilia and that the history books are wrong.

This is a very small pond.  Go for the big pond of world recognition.

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2009, 11:28:29 PM »

If you are so sure that Alexei did not have hemophilia then it is still incumbent on you to have the testing done.


I'm not the one who has claimed all along -- and without any medical laboratory proof -- that Alexei had hemophilia.

I'm not the one who has made the claim that Alexei's bones have now been found and identified.

I'm not the one who is now obliged by now having possession of those same bone fragments to complete the testing and to prove, once and for all, the historically popular but still totally unproven claim that Alexei had inherited hemophilia.

The popular claim that Alexei had suffered from hemophilia is, after all, still nothing more than that... a claim that has never been proved.

The full obligation now falls squarely and properly on the shoulders of those who now hold and have identified the bone fragments to finish the job properly and finally confirm the still unproven claims of history.

Don't pass the buck on to somebody else... just because they may hold an opposing view of the evidence.

JK
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 11:30:58 PM by J_Kendrick »

Alixz

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Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2009, 09:33:46 AM »
But you are the one without medical laboratory proof claiming that he did not have hemophilia.

What about all of the late 19th century and early 20th century doctors who had access to a real live and breathing Alexei who said that it was hemophilia.  Why doubt them?  Trash Rasputin - he was a charlatan so we can leave him out of all this.

So then IMHO, you should be the one to produce the information that will prove your challenge.

Since when does the challenger ask the challenged to show proof that the accepted original information is wrong and that the person challenging is right?

You have been espousing your theories for a long time, Mr. Kendrick, and I personally am not interested.  I posted my original post in the other thread to let the new member know that this "Canadian" information was not new and not proven and had been around for a long time.  The poster had not discovered something that would "bring the house down".

He discovered only your suppositions, which no one here has ever seen you turn into proof.  And , yes, no matter what you say, it is up to you to turn your suppositions into proof.  

For example, if I say that I own my dog and you say that it is yours, it is up to you to prove that the dog is yours, not up to me to prove that it is mine.  You can challenge me and bring proof that the dog is yours, which I then might have to repudiate, but the burden of proof would be on you, the challenger.  

Thank you for an interesting few days of sparing.  I am sorry to have brought all of this to the fore front again and to subject our posters, yet again, to your superfluous suppositions.

I truly hope that you expend some energy on working with the Russian scientists.  

When you have some proof.  Come back and see us again.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 09:44:28 AM by Alixz »

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Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2009, 10:05:16 AM »
and NOW Alixz you see why I have zero tolerance for JK.....welcome to the club.

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2009, 01:51:55 AM »

But you are the one without medical laboratory proof claiming that he did not have hemophilia.


There you go... passing the buck again :-)

There is no scientific laboratory proof of any kind that Alexei had hemophilia. None, Nada, Nothing.

There are no known medical records.  No first-hand statements from Nicholas actually using the word hemophilia.   No first-hand statements from Alexandra actually using the word hemophilia. No first-hand statements from Alexei or any of his sisters actually using the word hemophilia. Not a single one.

If there were any such quotes, we would all know exactly where to find them.  All of the evidence is second and third hand hearsay... and nothing more.

The only first hand evidence that even comes close is the statement of October 1912 by Alexei's doctors that calls it only ".. a significant anemia"... and that is all there is.

The only way that you will ever have any actual scientific proof... the only way... is if the bones uncovered in Ekaterinburg test positive for evidence of a faulty Factor VIII gene.
 
Until that day finally comes, there is no proof.  Only hearsay.

...and Hello again, Rob.  ;-)

JK

Alixz

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Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2009, 09:22:22 AM »
I am certainly not passing the buck. Since I don't care.  And you are the one who is making the accusations.  The buck has always been with you.  It is you who want to pass it on to the scientists in Russia.

It would be interesting to know what the bones have to say, but I have no vested interest in knowing as you seem to have.  You want to change the history books.

As I said before, then go do it! 

You want someone else to shoulder the responsibility of getting the results for you and then you can say, I told you so. 

Will we hear from you if you are found to be wrong? Like the unfortunate Mr. Richard Schweitzer from whom we no longer hear?

Oh pish and tosh.

Either get off your butt and do you own work, or accept that you will never know because you are not inclined to do the work yourself or at least get involved with those who can do the work.

FA - the club is getting more crowded as I do add myself as one more member.

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Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2009, 10:22:03 AM »

But you are the one without medical laboratory proof claiming that he did not have hemophilia.


There you go... passing the buck again :-)

There is no scientific laboratory proof of any kind that Alexei had hemophilia. None, Nada, Nothing.

There are no known medical records.  No first-hand statements from Nicholas actually using the word hemophilia.   No first-hand statements from Alexandra actually using the word hemophilia. No first-hand statements from Alexei or any of his sisters actually using the word hemophilia. Not a single one.

If there were any such quotes, we would all know exactly where to find them.  All of the evidence is second and third hand hearsay... and nothing more.

The only first hand evidence that even comes close is the statement of October 1912 by Alexei's doctors that calls it only ".. a significant anemia"... and that is all there is.

The only way that you will ever have any actual scientific proof... the only way... is if the bones uncovered in Ekaterinburg test positive for evidence of a faulty Factor VIII gene.
 
Until that day finally comes, there is no proof.  Only hearsay.

...and Hello again, Rob.  ;-)

JK

There you go again, selectively choosing what you want to read and what you "ignore" conveniently:

Spiridovitch WAS THERE IN Bielovezh and SPALA...As Chief of Personal Secret Security for the Imperial Family he was privy to everything related to Alexei's health conditions:

The Tsarevtich had climbed onto the edge of the bathtub wanting to show Derevenko how the sailors on the Standardt would jump off the side of the yacht into the sea to go swimming.  He jumped and fell onto the side of the bathtub.  It hurt him, but without doubt the pain was not very great because he did not say anything afterward.  However, only a few minutes later, he lost conscience and they carried his nearly inanimate body to his bed.
   This accident in a healthy boy would not have had any unfortunate results, but it was for him, who suffered from hemophilia, the start of many severe complications that could never be totally healed.  He was bleeding severely internally.
   As always, the illness was assiduously hidden to the entourage. 
***
 Immediately after some bumps that he took while on a promenade in a caleche with the Empress, his health worsened.  The internal bleeding was even worse, and the swelling in his groin increased in size so much so that the child was confined to his bed.  He suffered incredibly. His cries and moans echoed often throughout the Palace, and his fever steadily grew.  Botkin never left him for a moment, but did not know what he could do to bring him relief. His pain grew so bad that the sick child would not permit the swelling to be touched.  He slept on his side, leg folded, pale, thin and never stopped moaning.
   They called the surgeon Serge Petrovitch Fyedorov from Petersburg, and the old Rauchfuss.  They arrived on October 4th, the night before Alexis Nicholaiovitch's Name's day. The illness got worse.  October 6th, his temperature rose to over 39 degrees (102 F.) and would not go down.  After a consultation, the doctors declared that that the situation was desperate.  Fyedorov said that he had decided not to open the swelling, given that they would be operating on the inheritor of the throne, and the operation would bring on fatal bleeding.  Only a miracle could save the child's life, he said.  And when they asked him what that miracle might be, he responded by shrugging his shoulders and said that the swelling might spontaneously be reabsorbed, but that the chance of that actually happening was only less than one in a hundred.
---Les Dernieres Annees... Vol. 2 Ch. XII  my personal translation from the original French.

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2009, 02:00:09 AM »

There you go again, selectively choosing what you want to read and what you "ignore" conveniently:

Spiridovitch WAS THERE IN Bielovezh and SPALA...As Chief of Personal Secret Security for the Imperial Family he was privy to everything related to Alexei's health conditions:



If you look back in your own archives, Rob, you'll find that we've already been down this road before...

Spiridovich -- apparently your favourite source on this subject -- was writing in 1928, a full ten years after the murders... when the hemophilia rumour was already well established...  and sixteen long years after the episode at Spala.

Spridovich was not a doctor, so his claim that was written a full 16 years after the fact was not a result of his own medical knowledge.  His information was obviously second hand... so who was his original source?  Who was the person who had originally told  Spridovich the cause of Alexei's condition?... and when was he told?   

Was he told at the time of the event in 1912? ... or did he come to that conclusion on his own as a result of the rumours he had heard during the 16 years that had passed between the time of the event in 1912 and the time that he actually wrote his book in 1928?

The legal definition of Hearsay is: Evidence that is offered by a witness of which they do not have direct knowledge but, rather, their testimony is based on what others have said to them.

... and if you really do want to go into the Spala episode again in full detail..

You'll find my response  -- Spiridovich included -- both in your own archives of this board... and in the American Journal of Hematology, Volume 77, Number 1, September 2004.

JK

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Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2009, 09:19:11 AM »
He was told, by the Doctors treating him, at that time, in 1912. He was given daily updates by the doctors, as well as Sabline. Sorry that this contradicts your flat earth theory JK.
His papers are at Yale, go read them.

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2009, 12:56:30 AM »
He was told, by the Doctors treating him, at that time, in 1912. He was given daily updates by the doctors, as well as Sabline. Sorry that this contradicts your flat earth theory JK.
His papers are at Yale, go read them.


"He was told by the doctors treating him"

Again, the very definition of hearsay evidence: Evidence that is offered by a witness of which they do not have direct knowledge but, rather, their testimony is based on what others have said to them.

From your own translation of Spiridovich:
"October 6th, his temperature rose to over 39 degrees (102 F.) and would not go down.  After a consultation, the doctors declared that that the situation was desperate. Fyedorov said that he had decided not to open the swelling, given that they would be operating on the inheritor of the throne, and the operation would bring on fatal bleeding.  Only a miracle could save the child's life, he said.  And when they asked him what that miracle might be, he responded by shrugging his shoulders and said that the swelling might spontaneously be reabsorbed, but that the chance of that actually happening was only less than one in a hundred."

So, what happened four days later?  Exactly what Dr. Fyedorov had predicted might happen. The fever finally broke and Alexei had spontaneously recovered in a matter of a few short hours.

... and here's the catch...  

Hemophiliacs do not suffer fevers as a primary symptom of their hemorrhaging episodes... and the hemorrhaging that is caused by a Factor VIII or IX deficiency does not stop spontaneously.

These very same symptoms of excessively high fever and spontaneous recovery from hemorrhaging most certainly do happen, however, in episodes of Aplastic Crisis in patients with a history of Hemolytic Anemia... which is not caused by a clotting factor deficiency... and most certainly is not hemophilia.

From the official palace statement of 21 0ctober, 1912: "The results of such widespread haemorrhaging is a significant anaemia, which sometimes need a considerable time to cure completely"

Anemia certainly is a blood disorder... but it is not hemophilia.

JK
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 01:11:12 AM by J_Kendrick »

Offline PrincessLily

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Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2009, 08:34:07 AM »
My first instinct is: haven't these people been violated enough?  My emotional response aside, would there be sufficient DNA material left to do the testing?  My understanding is that there was very little viable material left of Alexei and Anastasia.  My apologies for the graphic imagery.

Lily