Author Topic: why not marrying a russian?  (Read 27330 times)

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Offline Terence

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2010, 02:09:17 AM »
I have always agreed with those who say that if Paul I could make the law,then anyone after him could break it.

How weak all the following Tsars look as they were unable to change what Paul I put into law.  Even Alexander I who was said to be wise and strong left his successor in a bad way but not letting the public know that Constantine was giving up his right of secession in favor of Nicholas I.

Bring of the Decemberists.

Alixz you pose something interesting to me at the moment, so I'll comment on this and then follow up on your next post.

I find it idiotic that the Pauline Law, put in force by one Emperor couldn't be changed by another Emperor.  Sounds like a real lack of imagination/stuck in tradition on the part of the Russian Imperial house.

While we have to place ourselves in another time and mindset I simply don't get that it you are the ruler of IMPERIAL RUSSIA you can't change the tea ritual.  These people seem crippled by their environment and upbringing.

To your next post...I think the one that was making a change that could have really made a difference was Alexander II.  His death at the hands of terrorists, was the last chance for reform in Russia IMO.  His son's rejection of the reforms he had just signed, the way Alexander III and Maria then raised Nicholas II, the poor guy had no chance.

All speculation, but nobody gave N II any decent education, other than retroactive.  IMO You can blame Alex III and then the widow Maria, as much as the son they neglected to educate.

Actually the terrorists who murdered Alexander II killed a reformer.  But maybe they wanted that mild reform to fail and the evil that erupted in 1917 to erupt and the terror and murder to follow.

Just thoughts,
T

Offline mcdnab

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2010, 02:32:04 PM »
The Romanov dynasty had changed the rules on a couple of occassions - Alexander III for example limited the Grand Ducal rank to the children and grandchildren of a Tsar. The overriding rule was that succeeding Tsars took an oath to defend the preserve the Pauline Laws. It became more difficult to make changes after they were incorporated into the Fundamental laws of the Russian Empire by the first post 1905 Duma.

Offline royalboy202

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2010, 12:39:07 AM »


This is a list of some of the woman who were around the same age as Nicholas and woud have been of equal rank at the time excluding caltholic Princess's.  I think his father would have liked for his son to marry one of the Montenegro Princess's.



Princess Alexandra Therese Marie of Anhalt (Dessau 4 Apr 1868-Schwetzingen 26 Aug 1958)
Princess Sibylle Margaretha Christa Thyra Hedwig Catharina of Hesse-Kassel  (Schloß Panker 3 Jun 1877-Wiesbaden 11 Feb 1953)
Princess Bertha Luise of   of Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld (Burgsteinfurt 25 Oct 1874-Detmold 19 Feb 1919)
Princess Feodore Adelheid Helene Luise Karoline Gustave Pauline Alice Jenny of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg (Primkenau 3 Jul 1874-Oberasbach 21 Jun 1910)
Duchess Elisabeth Alexandrine Mathilde Auguste of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (Ludwigslust 10 Aug 1869- Schaumburg 3 Sep 1955)
Duchess Friederike Wilhelmine Elisabeth Alexandrine Auguste Marianne Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (Schloß Bellevue 7 Nov 1868-Partenkirchen 20 Dec 1944)
Duchess Victoria Marie Auguste Luise Antoinette Karoline Leopoldine of Mecklenburg-Strelitez (Neustrelitz 8 May 1878-Oberkassel 14 Oct 1948)
Princess Jelena (Elena) of Montenegro(Cetinje 8 Jan 1873-Montpellier 28 Nov 1952)
Princess Anna of Montenegro(Cetinje 18 Aug 1874-Montreux 22 Apr 1971)
Duchess Sophie Charlotte of Oldenburg (Oldenburg 2 Feb 1879-Westerstede 29 Mar 1964)
Princess Bathildis Marie Leopoldine Anna Auguste of Schaumburg-Lippe (Ratiboritz 21 May 1873-Arolsen 6 Apr 1962)
Princess Friederike Adelheid Marie Luise Hilda Eugenie of Schaumburg-Lippe (Ratiboritz 22 Sep 1875-Ballenstedt 27 Jan 1971
Princess Alexandra Karoline Marie Ida Henriette Juliane of Shaumburg-Lippe (Ratiboritz 9 Jun 1879-Linz am Rhein 5 Jan 1949)
Princess Luise Elisabeth Hermine Erika Pauline of Waldeck (Arolsen 6 Sep 1873-Elmshausen 23 Nov 1961)
Duchelss Elsa Mathilde Marie of Wurttemberg (Stuttgart 1 Mar 1876-Pfaffstädt 27 May 1936)
Duchess Olga Alexandrine Marie of Wurttemberg (Stuttgart 1 Mar 1876-Ludwigsburg 21 Oct 1932)
Princess Alix of Hesse-Darmstadt
Princess Margaret of Prussia






Offline Grand Duchess Valeria

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2010, 01:50:00 AM »
Anyone of them as beautiful as Alix??? :)

Thanks for this interesting list, royalboy!
And when he shall die, // Take him and cut him out in little starres, // And he will make the Face of heaven so fine, // That all the world will be in Love with night, // And pay no worship to the Garish Sun.

Offline Sergei Witte

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2010, 02:49:00 PM »
, the way Alexander III and Maria then raised Nicholas II, the poor guy had no chance.

All speculation, but nobody gave N II any decent education, other than retroactive.  IMO You can blame Alex III and then the widow Maria, as much as the son they neglected to educate.


I don't agree. Nicholas was well educated on history, languages etc. (the theoretical stuff). He only had no political experience. This was because Alexander III died relative unexpectedly early. Would he have become older he would surely have given his son the chance to become more experienced. This is why he eventually was made Chairman of the Transsiberia Railroad Committee. It was only too late to give him enough experience. You can't blame his elders for the mistakes that Nicholas made later on, supposedly caused by lacking education. Political talent was not given to him unfortunately.

Constantinople

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2010, 08:59:20 AM »
in the period prior to 1905,  Nicholas probably could have changed any law he wanted to, including all or part of the Pauline laws of succession but he didnt have the will or a malleable enough administrative intelligence to do that.  From 1905, he was powerless to do anything and his power eroded consistently until the revolution when the last vestiges vanished.

Alixz

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2010, 03:39:55 AM »


This is a list of some of the woman who were around the same age as Nicholas and would have been of equal rank at the time excluding Catholic Princess's.  I think his father would have liked for his son to marry one of the Montenegro Princess's.



Princess Alexandra Therese Marie of Anhalt (Dessau 4 Apr 1868-Schwetzingen 26 Aug 1958)
Princess Sibylle Margaretha Christa Thyra Hedwig Catharina of Hesse-Kassel  (Schloß Panker 3 Jun 1877-Wiesbaden 11 Feb 1953)
Princess Bertha Luise of   of Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld (Burgsteinfurt 25 Oct 1874-Detmold 19 Feb 1919)
Princess Feodore Adelheid Helene Luise Karoline Gustave Pauline Alice Jenny of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg (Primkenau 3 Jul 1874-Oberasbach 21 Jun 1910)
Duchess Elisabeth Alexandrine Mathilde Auguste of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (Ludwigslust 10 Aug 1869- Schaumburg 3 Sep 1955)
Duchess Friederike Wilhelmine Elisabeth Alexandrine Auguste Marianne Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (Schloß Bellevue 7 Nov 1868-Partenkirchen 20 Dec 1944)
Duchess Victoria Marie Auguste Luise Antoinette Karoline Leopoldine of Mecklenburg-Strelitez (Neustrelitz 8 May 1878-Oberkassel 14 Oct 1948)
Princess Jelena (Elena) of Montenegro(Cetinje 8 Jan 1873-Montpellier 28 Nov 1952)
Princess Anna of Montenegro(Cetinje 18 Aug 1874-Montreux 22 Apr 1971)
Duchess Sophie Charlotte of Oldenburg (Oldenburg 2 Feb 1879-Westerstede 29 Mar 1964)
Princess Bathildis Marie Leopoldine Anna Auguste of Schaumburg-Lippe (Ratiboritz 21 May 1873-Arolsen 6 Apr 1962)
Princess Friederike Adelheid Marie Luise Hilda Eugenie of Schaumburg-Lippe (Ratiboritz 22 Sep 1875-Ballenstedt 27 Jan 1971
Princess Alexandra Karoline Marie Ida Henriette Juliane of Shaumburg-Lippe (Ratiboritz 9 Jun 1879-Linz am Rhein 5 Jan 1949)
Princess Luise Elisabeth Hermine Erika Pauline of Waldeck (Arolsen 6 Sep 1873-Elmshausen 23 Nov 1961)
Duchelss Elsa Mathilde Marie of Wurttemberg (Stuttgart 1 Mar 1876-Pfaffstädt 27 May 1936)
Duchess Olga Alexandrine Marie of Wurttemberg (Stuttgart 1 Mar 1876-Ludwigsburg 21 Oct 1932)
Princess Alix of Hesse-Darmstadt
Princess Margaret of Prussia     

This is an impressive list.  Thank you for all the work that must have gone into making it.

As to beauty - we used to have a saying where I worked long ago - "pretty will get you in the door, but it won't sustain you after you get in unless you have the brains to go with it".

Alix - may have been beautiful - although I have never seen it in her morose expressions - but a consort who knew her place and her job would have been a better choice.  And one who did not carry hemophilia would have been a bonus!   :-)

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2010, 05:49:26 AM »
Ah, it's not just me - I have never found Alexandra beautiful either.

Ann

Alixz

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2010, 09:28:42 AM »
Of the four Hessian sisters, Victoria, Ella, Irene and Alix, I think that Ella was probably the most attractive.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so it is hard to judge or to see why these four were considered the "most beautiful princesses" in Europe at the time.

We never see Alix smile and so perhaps that brought life to her eyes and her face and made her "beautiful".

However, to my eye, Victoria and Irene were homely.


C'est la vie!

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2010, 12:08:04 PM »
Some people just do not photograph well - my mother was one (my father is just the opposite and looks better in photographs than in life!)

I've probably made it obvious on various threads that I'm not very interested in people's looks (and, in particular, with the idea that beauty excuses all kinds of character flaws).

Ann

Offline Grand Duchess Valeria

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2010, 11:21:40 AM »
Who was Nicholas interested in, besides Alix? Are there some ladies on the list?
And when he shall die, // Take him and cut him out in little starres, // And he will make the Face of heaven so fine, // That all the world will be in Love with night, // And pay no worship to the Garish Sun.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2010, 11:31:56 AM »
As I have explained before, it was a longstanding rule the the Emperor and heir not marryione of their own subjects to be Empress. This dated back to Peter the Great and the bloody family feuds  vieing   for power and influence. Alex. II did indeed marry his mistress, but   the successionhad already been secured by the traditional marriage.
 This rule  applied to many European monarchies over time.  I do not think it still applies  to any now though.
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Offline Grand Duchess Valeria

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2010, 11:44:07 AM »
Yes but I don't want to mention if he was allowed to marry, I just wanted to know, if there was any woman who he was interested in. For example I believe that he liked Helene of Orleans for example (and was of course not allowed to marry her). Was there another lady he wanted to marry?
And when he shall die, // Take him and cut him out in little starres, // And he will make the Face of heaven so fine, // That all the world will be in Love with night, // And pay no worship to the Garish Sun.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2010, 11:57:37 AM »
I was responding to the topic of this thread, not  who he might or might not have been interested in.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Grand Duchess Valeria

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Re: why not marrying a russian?
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2010, 12:06:52 PM »
Ah ok, sorry :D Maybe someone could answer my question? Would be great ;)
And when he shall die, // Take him and cut him out in little starres, // And he will make the Face of heaven so fine, // That all the world will be in Love with night, // And pay no worship to the Garish Sun.