Author Topic: Anna Anderson and DNA  (Read 30152 times)

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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2010, 11:09:30 AM »
The title was our publisher's idea...but yes, the book tackles the "How" of the case in great depth.


Thanks; the "how" meaning how AA (and her supporters) were able to pull of decades of very convincing propaganda that she was Anastasia? To me, the mystery is 'who was AA?' She clearly had insider, almost secret, information that suggested she had to have either been Anastasia or been directly associated with people who could arm her with facts and data to perpetuate her fraud. I have always wondered if she was some sort of care-giver to the RF during their imprisonment in Ekaterinberg, established a close friendship with Anastasia, and took the opportunity to assume the false identity when the chance presented itself.
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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2010, 11:18:46 AM »
HK,

Having read the draft version of Greg and Penny's book, the answer is clear that she didn't actually HAVE that "inside" information. She learned it from the questions asked of her, which were often of the "remember when you met me at x" or learned from discussions with people who actually were there. Also, many of the answers she gave were also wrong, and the sheer number of right ones is about the same as purely guessing.  You see, people WANTED her to BE Anastasia Nicholaievna, so they projected onto her what they expected and FS was clever enough to learn to meet their expectations. All will be very clear when you read the book.



Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2010, 11:56:50 AM »
HK,

Having read the draft version of Greg and Penny's book, the answer is clear that she didn't actually HAVE that "inside" information. She learned it from the questions asked of her, which were often of the "remember when you met me at x" or learned from discussions with people who actually were there. Also, many of the answers she gave were also wrong, and the sheer number of right ones is about the same as purely guessing.  You see, people WANTED her to BE Anastasia Nicholaievna, so they projected onto her what they expected and FS was clever enough to learn to meet their expectations. All will be very clear when you read the book.


which makes FS (AA) a very interesting subject to dissect. A person has to be good to twist information to their benefit and carry it to the extremes she did for the lenght of time she did. I agree, there is a strong emotion people can conjure up to believe what they should not (hence, politicians). Wouldn't it have been wonderful to have had the DNA results while AA was still alive? Love to hear her reaction. As it turns out, everyone should have listened to Irene in the first place.
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Offline moonlight_tsarina

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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2011, 11:46:25 AM »
I have always wondered, since she truly was not the Grand Duchess, how did she know such facts? Thanks for semi-clearing this up. I can't wait to read this book.
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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2011, 11:50:58 AM »
She actually "knew" far less than people believe.  Everything she "knew" was available in magazines, books at the time, or innocently fed to her by people who told her, for example "remember the time when you and Olga did x?' so then she "knew" x...

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2011, 02:00:07 PM »
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'She actually "knew" far less than people believe.  Everything she "knew" was available in magazines, books at the time, or innocently fed to her by people who told her, for example "remember the time when you and Olga did x?' so then she "knew" x...'

Exactly. Plus people tend to filter out what doesn't fit in with their perceptions. So AA's supporters would ignore the times when she didn't answer, or the answer didn't fit (plus the fact that she refused to speak Russian and spoke English so badly). Equally, the anti-AA group would ignore the things which were consistent with her being Anastasia (though there weren't as many of those!)

I have completely given up the Amazon forum on the Resuurection of the Romanovs. Some people just won't listen to reason (or DNA results!).

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2011, 03:37:42 PM »
This whole "birther" nonsense going around about our president helps me to better understand the continued "belief" of kooks in AA being GDAN in spite of the facts. My parents first met our future president as a young high school student named "Barry", a friend of the son of their Hawaiian friends. This happened when the birthers allege he was not in Hawaii. In spite of this and the recent release of yet another certificate, a full 25% of my country still does not believe the facts, and horrifyingly, can still vote and pollute the gene pool by reproducing!

Just as irrational are those who continue to believe in the myth of Anna Anderson being a grand duchess. As I have long said, many will not let facts get in the way of a good delusion.

Offline Terence

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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2011, 02:04:23 AM »
This whole "birther" nonsense going around about our president helps me to better understand the continued "belief" of kooks in AA being GDAN in spite of the facts. My parents first met our future president as a young high school student named "Barry", a friend of the son of their Hawaiian friends. This happened when the birthers allege he was not in Hawaii. In spite of this and the recent release of yet another certificate, a full 25% of my country still does not believe the facts, and horrifyingly, can still vote and pollute the gene pool by reproducing!

Just as irrational are those who continue to believe in the myth of Anna Anderson being a grand duchess. As I have long said, many will not let facts get in the way of a good delusion.

Offline Tdora1

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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2011, 01:24:52 PM »
I can give an excellent example of how the erroneous idea that someone has exclusive knowledge that only the real person could know gets purveyed and believed - and to an astonishing extent.

During the late 1970s, the north of England cities of Leeds, Bradford, Manchester and others were terrorised by a murderer known as the Yorkshire Ripper (now known to be one Peter Sutcliffe). The police were under great pressure to capture this POS who seemed as if he was taunting them with increasingly blatant crimes. He murdered women by striking them from behind and then stabbing them. At first his victims were mostly prostitutes - the police believed that they were his sole target and did not warn other women they were in danger until the Ripper began killing outside of redlight areas. In truth, from the getgo, the Ripper's targets were any woman - and hookers were commonly victims because it was not difficult to get them to quiet dark areas...

Alas the police made many serious errors. One of these was to ignore survivor's testimonies, including that they described their attacker as having a 'local' accent. A Yorkshire accent is distinctive (think of TV shows like All Creatures Great and Small, Last of the Summer Wine, Heartbeat, for example). It is unmistakeable.

In 1978 and the following year the police received two letters and a cassette tape, both of which they believed were from the killer and which were publicised in an unprecedented national campaign. Everyone over the age of, say, 7 alive then in the UK would remember them being played and displayed. The voice on the tape had a strong North-East "Geordie" accent - as the Newcastle accent is known as (although experts pinpointed it a bit further south, to a Wearside mining town).  So convinced were the police of the authenticity of the tape being the killer that they instructed that suspects could be eliminated if "they did not have a Geordie accent."

Why were they so sure this was the killer? Because he mentioned a murder in Preston in 1975 which the cops had begun to think might be attributed to the Ripper but they believed that this link had never been made public. Based on this (and a couple of other snippets which were nothing but basic coincidences) they shifted their entire focus onto identifying the man on the tape, being sure he was the killer.

He wasn't. Sutcliffe - a local from Bradford - was arrested in January 1981 and later convicted.

In 2006, "Wearside Jack", the hoaxer, was finally identified and charge. An alcoholic loser, he'd made the letters and tape for a prank. He was jailed for 7 years.

The "possible link with Preston 75" that the police were so sure had never been made public turns out to have been speculation voiced by a senior police officer which was duly published in the regional Yorkshire Post in March 1977 and then, after the latest murder, written up in the national Daily Mirror newspaper the following month.

An enquiry was conducted after Sutcliffe's conviction to probe the police's handling of the investigation. It was highly critical - and indeed, makes uncomfortable reading. Many coppers doing the groundwork - as well as all the experts - were at the time horrified that their seniors insisted upon using the tape and letters as proof that suspects could be eliminated based upon those characteristics. Sutcliffe was interviuews 9 TIMES by the police before being arrested with a known prostitute in his car for having false number plates....

So this just illustrates why those claims that "no-one but the real Grand Duchess could know x,y,z..." were BS all along.
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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2011, 03:47:38 AM »
I was at university at the time of the Yorkshire Ripper (coincidentally, in Newcastle), and well remember not only the emphasis on the hoax tapes but also wondering how it was that the police were so certain that this was the real Ripper. The hoaxer had a Wearside accent, from the Sunderland area which is about 15 miles from Newcastle. To those not familiar with Geordie, Wearside sounds similar, but there are distinct differences, notably that Geordies say 'mek' for 'make', whereas Wearsiders say 'mak'. This is considered so fundamental that Wearsiders are known to Geordies as Makkums.

As to Anna Anderson, her supporters stress her knowing about Ernst Ludwig's visit to Russia in 1916, but that can't prove anything because there is no proof that it ever happened (personally I doubt it). That is a circular argument to end all circular arguments.

Ann

Offline TimM

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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2011, 11:52:12 AM »
DNA has laid a lot of mysteries to rest.  It proved beyond the shadow of the doubt that Nazi war criminals Martin Bormann and Joseph Mengle were dead, when many said they were still alive.
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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2011, 01:32:41 PM »
That is, of course, if people accept that the DNA testing was done properly and without contamination.  You know that there are those who still believe that the DNA conclusions for Anna Anderson were contrived by - who knows?  Buckingham Palace or someone from Venus?

There are some who will never believe.

Offline TimM

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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2011, 11:43:03 PM »
Yep, you'll always have the Flat Earthers out there.
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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2011, 03:42:11 AM »
'That is, of course, if people accept that the DNA testing was done properly and without contamination.'

As I understand the science, contamination will not produce a false match or false lack of match, but a sample which is clearly corrupted.

I suspect we are going to have the same problem with Osama bin Laden. As I understand the news, the Americans got a DNA match with brain tissue from a sister of Bin Laden's, but I think we need to know where they got that from. I'm not being a flat earther here. I'm just being a lawyer and wanting my chain of evidence!

Ann

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Anna Anderson and DNA
« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2011, 07:46:04 AM »
Re Reply # 43:  Hello, Ann!  It seems that each day there are so many stories circulating in the States until it's difficult to sometimes separate fact from fiction (if indeed one can).  However, on the DNA of the sister, I seem to recall that I read from a recent news article that his sister had travelled to the USA earlier for treatment/surgery for brain cancer(?) /brain tumor (?) and subsequently expired there. Her brain (or a portion thereof) was kept according to the information for future references. I'm thinking that the hospital mentioned was in Boston, Mass., USA, but I will stand to be corrected on all points, since it was a rapid scan on my part.  Regards,  AP.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 07:51:47 AM by aleksandr pavlovich »