Author Topic: Czech Legion  (Read 15179 times)

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Czech Legion
« on: September 18, 2009, 03:36:17 PM »
new topic - pivotal bands of soldiers fighting for the independence of their own country

Offline newfan

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Re: Czech Legion
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2009, 08:37:19 PM »
Finnaly !!
I love to hear more ,been waiting for it,thanks

Offline Zecharia

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Re: Czech Legion
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2009, 01:47:06 AM »
new topic - pivotal bands of soldiers fighting for the independence of their own country
Thank you for this topic :)

Here is one of many web pages - http://translate.roseville.ca.us/ma/enwiki/en/Czechoslovak_Legions

Offline wox24

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Re: Czech Legion
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 08:02:00 AM »
I think Czech Legion made a lot of problems for White Army and it would be better so they did not fight in Russia.

Offline newfan

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Re: Czech Legion
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 09:06:08 AM »
here is another link for czechoslovak legion
http://www.cslegie.wz.cz/AJ/indexAJ.htm
youtube video link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhtACEgNX7A

Offline Zecharia

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Re: Czech Legion
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 01:12:15 AM »

Offline Zecharia

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Re: Czech Legion
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 01:14:45 AM »
I think Czech Legion made a lot of problems for White Army and it would be better so they did not fight in Russia.
Can you tell me, which problems? ???

Offline BluHussar

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Re: Czech Legion
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2010, 10:26:39 AM »
For Zecharia and all others who have listed links, I just want to thank you.  It gives me a glimpse of my ancestor's participtation with both the Druzhina (Czech units of the Imperial Russian Army) as well as their fighting on the side of the Whites.  It is doubtful that I will be able to trace the enlistment rolls of the Druzhina Units.  In the meantime I have since learned from other source that Czechs were found in small units of
the shock troops of the Imperial Army.

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Re: Czech Legion
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2010, 11:09:42 AM »
If the White Russian armies had fought as well as the Czech Legion did, Russian wouldn't have become communist.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Czech Legion
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2010, 03:00:00 PM »
The Czech Legion  had one goal in 1918:   "get home", therefore,  they were united in their direction, thought and spirit.  

The Russians didn't have a set direction accept to defeat the Reds from wherever they attacked.  Most of the Whites didn't even think about saving their ex-Emperor because they weren't sure what kind of government they wanted, accept,  most didn't want the old one as it had been, so,  they let the  Bolsheviks worry about Nicholas II and Michael for awhile longer....

AGRBear

« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 03:24:19 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Czech Legion
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2010, 03:36:57 PM »
I can't believe that the only difference was focus.  I thnk they were better organized, better educated and better led than the white Russian troops.  They probably also did not tolerate the brutality unleashed by White Army officers on white army soldiers.  The desertion rate among white army soldiers was quite high I think.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Czech Legion
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2010, 03:38:23 PM »
Here is an example of the complex relationships early in 1918:

>>As January passed he relationship with the Cossacks grew more and more strained, and it became increasingly difficult for recruits to get to Novocherkassk and Rostov.  Alekseev began negotiations with the Ukraine, which was now distinctly anti-Bolshevik, with a Polish army corps operating against the Germans on the northern front, and with the Czechoslovak Legion, comprised of Czechs and Slovaks who, anxious for independence from Austrians, had taken service under the Russian flag.  None of the forces were prepared to play.  The Ukrainians and the Pole were intensely suspicious of the White's adherence to the ideal of a Greater Russia: the Ukrainians began negotiations with the Germans, and the Poles expressed their loyalty to the Regency Council, which had been set up under German Auspices in Warsaw.  The Czechs remained anti-German but saw no reason, at the this juncture, to throw in their lot with the Whites.<<

p.107  THE WHITE GENERALS  by Richard Luckett
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Czech Legion
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2010, 04:05:28 PM »
I can't believe that the only difference was focus.  I thnk they were better organized, better educated and better led than the white Russian troops.  They probably also did not tolerate the brutality unleashed by White Army officers on white army soldiers.  The desertion rate among white army soldiers was quite high I think.

The brutalities within the White and Red armies were numerous, as were the brutal clashes between them.  War is hell.  

Perhaps the Czechs were better organized because they had been fighting in regiments since they first went into Russia.  

http://translate.roseville.ca.us/ma/enwiki/en/Czechoslovak_Legions:
>>Small armed units were organized from 1914 onwards by volunteer Czechs and Slovaks. Their purpose was to help the Entente and win their support to the creation of an independent country of Czechoslovakia, then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Later, many Czech and Slovaks captured during the war joined these units; with help of émigré intellectuals and politicians (Tomáš Masaryk, Milan Rastislav Štefánik and others) the Legions grew into a force of tens of thousands. The independence of Czechoslovakia was finally obtained in 1918.<<

The Whites were a new creation and looking for good leaders....  They were, also,  joining old groups who had been part of the Tsar's army and had their own leaders, who more often than not had their own agendas, like the Czechs, who were stranded in Russia.  The men who were to become officers in the Whites were moving from all corners of Russia to join the anti-Bolshevik campaign which doted areas in the north, east, west and south.

Why would you think the Czechs were better educated?

Why do you think the desertion rate for the Whites was higher than the Reds?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 04:11:40 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Czech Legion
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2010, 04:24:47 PM »
Because Russian peasants had almost no education and these were the basis of the Russian army.  Most were illiterate but the education of Czechs and Slovaks wre much better educated.  98% of Czechs were literate in 1914 with Slovaks somewhat lower.  The Bohemians had a long history of education with universities in the pre entities that would form CzechoSlovakia going back to 14th or 15th centuries.  The revolutions of 1848 and 1849 also led to the establlishment of general education and schools.

And I think the dessertion rate was higher among white army soldiers because of the propoganda of the Reds initially, long established resentment of Tsarist officers that stemmed from the war and a natural identification with the ideals of the Bohsheviks rather than from a class system that the average soldier didn't feel he would gain anything from.  Later when the tide of the war turned in the Bolsheviks favour, survivaly probably played a role especially as the Bolsheviks gave deserters relatively good treatment and captured soldiers who resisted brutal treatment including executions.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Czech Legion
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2010, 07:42:21 PM »
After 1840 the education of peasants, which included many members of my own family,  was required and was equal to our American  first through 8th grade in the late 1800s and early 1900s.  

Quote
Quote from: Finelly on August 15, 2005, 12:29:39 PM
.....[in part]....
 By 1914, Imperial Russia had 8 million young people enrolled at all educational levels; 112 thousand students were enrolled in ninety-one institutions of higher education; there were reckoned to be 12,586 public libraries in Russia with 8,900,000 volumes; and the daily circulation of newspapers equalled 2,729,000 copies. In 1920, 73 percent of the urban population and 44 percent of the total population (aged nine to forty-nine) were literate. Although the events of World War 1, the revolutions of 1917, foreign interventions, and civil war between Whites and Reds all imposed huge costs in terms of loss of life and property, by 1925 there still remained millions of persons with primary education and hundreds of thousands with secondary education.8  [...in part....].[/i][/b]
.  

This included boys and girls.

All the officers from our family had educations to the 8th and some higher.   All could speak two or more languages.

Here in the US,  during that time period,  the children were to go to school up to the age of 12.   So,  there wasn't very much difference in the law.  

Although there wasn't a law which stated that Russian factory proprietor send the children whom they employed to school,  law did voice that children had the "opportunity" to attend school three hours a day and eighteen hours a week.  According to  Henri Troyat in DAILY LIFE IN RUSSIA UNDER THE LAST TSAR p. 96:  ...the majority of big Russian firms have created educational establishments near their factories, under the ontrol of the Ministry of Public Education.  On January 1, 1899 there were 446 schools of this kind in Russia, attended by nearly 50,000 adolesents.  "

The municipal authorities of the country schools was part of the "mir".  Villages like my German-Russian colonies  built schools for primary and secondary levels. Every household paid their share to pay for the teachers as well as their dwellings.., plus they gave them hay for their horse and cow, etc...

Added to this were military schools for the future officers.

The wealthy German-Russian farmers often times sent their children to Germany to universities.

VILLAGE LIFE IN LATE TSARIST RUSSIA by O. S. Tian-Shanskaia  p. 44:
>>Ivan is sent off to school when he is ten.  "He'll be better paid if he can read and write," say the peasants.  Nowadays, in view of wages paid in Moscoe,  more and more peasants are endeavoring to have their sons learn reading and writing.  They say such thins as:  "In Moscow if is more important than here to know ready and writing, and you are judged by your knowledge of it," and "It is harder to cheat a literate person."

p.45 >>Our area has only one state school and some parochial schools.  The program of the state school is very comprehensive (two grades, five sections, five years of study), and rarely does anyone finish the school.  Their  program of the parish schools (one grade for two years, two grades for four years, and a two-year grammar school) is as follows:  Catechism, Church Slavic, choir, Russian, country, introduction to geography and Russian history.<<

Many of the German-Russian priests studied in Germany and returned to be in charge of their parochial schools which had teachers who had instruction as well as having graduated from parish schools.   According to my family members,  they all went the eight years (1-8th).

Boys taken in as apprentices were required to go to school.

The talented  student could gain a scholarship and go up the ladder of education...

Of course,  the Russian schools were not as good as the Western European school, but Russia was a huge place and difficult to manage.

I remember being surprised when I read the stats on the number of country men and women who had gone the 1-8th were the ones who went off to Moscow and others cities and became the "workers".    See THE RUSSIAN WORKER, LIFE AND LABOR UND THE TSARIST REGIME by Victoria E. Bonnell, as Editor.  An example, page 207 , Table 5.1. shows:

  salescherks who were literate between the ages of 13 to 40 years of age
      men         94.5
     women      85.5
     children      89.5

If a person was older than fifty,   the percentage dropped to 65.6.

This book can be a eye opener for some of you.





AGRBear



« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 07:54:06 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152